STUVash
STUVash
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I can tell already it would be a big change to bring match results. So if the point is just to have a higher win ratio these changes are "Perfect".
If the point was to make him more fun and a higher ratio, then I'm expecting more changes.
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We all agree base kit in the current version is Weak.
You now have two killers playing him in this discussion telling you he is not as weak as you described it in your OP and in multiple ways. It's fine for you to agree with others on some points especially when they agree with you but with info gathered from experience.
I'm pretty sure most of the replies you got in this discussion disregarded the details in your original post and just envision the Trickster as they saw him in their own games, simply agreeing on the fact that he's weak. I'm just telling that he's not That Weak while providing details, and explanations.
I still consider his base kit to be the weakest because it has so many handicaps, but being the weakest doesn't mean you can't get 4 kills. And even as he is, there are ways to get 4k easily. Which is a far cry from what your original post described.
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Although I was expecting different buffs, it should still be a major improvement in match results, thanks for reacting so quickly BHVR.
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@loopsahoy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2089850#Comment_2089850
Meta add on depending? Thats even worse.
I didn't say that, I can perform rather well without add-ons now that I know how to play him. I'm just saying some add-ons make him far more better, which also means "Not weak" in these situations.
See now you'd be more inclined to say "This is wrong" rather than "he is just weak". It's just a thing some players should consider whether they're talking about the killer or trying to win with him instead of just making posts without actually knowing.
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Trickster default kit is weak for sure, but equip some add-ons and suddenly he get kills left and right. What I would advice to struggling Trickster players is to equip Cut Thru U Single with Edge Of Revival Album, aim at the feet, or rather the center of the hitbox near the ground, when chasing a guy if possible, if the survivor keep running in the open after you got the first injury it's fairly possible to land a 2nd injury by keep firing at their feet while they run.
What these two add-ons do is helping you in ALL scenarios. It helps you in a 1v1 chase because you hit the survivor + the ground dealing +50% damage And if survivors ever packed together from doing a gen, unhooking or protecting each other, you hit them all. You deal more damage with fewer knives and Main Event charge faster providing you Free Knives if you ever run out during a chase.
With these two add-ons most of the game becomes rather dumb, you're not really aiming that much because the knives deal damage on larger areas, injury comes faster and once you got the pressure it's quite easy to protect the hook if survivors are showing up too soon with a Borrowed Time plan. Many times when survivors did that both would go down. That's 4 health state inflicted in less than 12 seconds, that's how good it can be. It almost plays like a Bubba if you start firing at the feet while they unhook.
The only real mastery if you run these add-ons is to know how to aim from afar, there is vital information you can get by aiming at various key spots in the map, near a gen, near an exit gate, a totem. Throwing a knife in specific locations can save you alot of time to find survivors. And there are also some times where your survivors would have alot of walls near a hook, preventing you from inflincting that 4th health state under 12 seconds, in those times knowing how to aim from afar will help you alot.
His default kit is the worst, but some of these add-ons actually make him better than some other killers.
I go in more depth about Trickster Kit in this discussion https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/239229/trickster-kit-a-straightforward-analysis
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@danielmaster87 When you're out of knives or nearly out of knives and you have an opportunity to shoot at a survivor in the open, it saves you time for sure, even more if there are multiple survivors (assuming you have Cut Thru U Single purple add-on equipped).
In this scenario without Main Event and knives, you'd have to whack your target with a basic attack and the other one would be able to run away. Leaving you with one survivor to hook, either the first one you downed or the 2nd one if you chase him while the 1st one is picked up.
If the conditions are optimal, you can get two downs there, I do it quite often. Mostly without Main Event but if Main Event is up and they are in the open, I use it right away. When you consider the fact it gives Free Knives, the only real problem I have with Main Event is that you can't really choose When you'd like to use it.
Most Trickster players are not using Main Event all that much because to unlock it you need to use your knives first, giving time for a survivor to run into cover,. But if we could keep it, we could start an encounter with Main Event we'd save alot of time making the use of the ability lot easier. I kinda like the Super Move charging idea, even if it's quite similar to the base power and still slow you down.
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@Zixology said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2087559#Comment_2087559
The devs don't test things dude... get real
I mean someone had to try it to see if it was working, right ? I'm being real. You think they chose 8 hits with knives as a random number ? You think they'd bother making a Recoil mechanic while Huntress and Deathslinger had none for no reason ? Sure they don't test things enough to solve all the problems but they did some tests at some point.
Unfortunately the tests to build the killer are mostly done before it gets to PTB, and after PTB it seems most feedback isn't used to fix the issues before release but that's another story.
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Oh console players definitely have my sympathy for all the range killers, even more with recoil on Trickster. I'm sure they didn't think about console players when they added recoil... I hope :o
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@Shroompy said:
After playing Trickster for countless hours in the past week I'm starting to believe that we're getting another Hag situation, old Hag had her flaws but it didn't help that the majority of the player base just set all 10 traps near the hook, once she received some buffs people actually realized you can set traps at loops and actually have quite a bit of lethality, now she's placed pretty high up in many people's tier lists
I see The Trickster in the same situation, people are trying to play him like the other ranged killers we already have, the way I see it, he's just the "shotgun" of the ranged killers. Trickster being close up to a survivor can result them being downed in seconds, much faster than the other ranged killers we have at the moment, the problem is people are trying to play him similarly to Huntress, y'all need to understand that Trickster at long to medium range his knives won't do anything, just like how back in the day with Hag, doesn't matter how many traps are near that hook, all it takes is 1 to find out some one is going for that save.
I'm not saying Trickster is top tier, I'm just saying he isn't the worst killer. All he needs are a few QoL improvements and I think he'll be spot on.
You're both right and wrong. The base power as it is right now with its many handicaps make him the worst.
If you consider add-ons, some of the build you could make are able to do more damage than some other killers like Demogorgon. In this specific scenario he wouldn't be the worst but that's mostly because Demogorgon add-ons are not changing the game that much.
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I'd just make Trick Blades base kit and let us keep Main Event.
Changing anything in his kit will make a big difference in most matches especially when add-ons are involved, he's underwhelming only because so many handicaps are piled up.
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Buffing him is needed but I really don't think buffing EVERY parts of his kit is the best idea. Especially when you can already get 4 kills in most matches when you know how to properly use his strengths and avoid his weaknesses.
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@Chilli_man2400 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2087559#Comment_2087559
That doesn’t make sense though because like you said deathslinger is in the game why would they add recoil to make him more balanced when slinger can aim and down people in under 5 seconds
Because unlike Deathslinger, Trickster can aim from afar. I didn't say it was a great idea, I just tried to guess Why it was there.
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I would guess that upon testing they found that landing 8 hits was quite easy with no recoil at all. The idea is clearly to force you to avoid firing your power rapidly at long range, since recoil affects your shots the more distance you build with your target. Which is fine, even with no recoil you'd probably miss most of the shots, even if you land two, the survivor can just get behind a structure and run; you can see how it goes by firing slowly.
That being said, it still doesn't feel right considering it doesn't actually change anything. If you consider Deathslinger as the previous range killer, his spear may be precise but its range is limited. Maybe the idea for Trickster was to limit his ideal range of action while still leaving him the possibility to fire from afar. I don't think Recoil should make you miss your target if it's close enough.
The only part where I don't understand why recoil would be there is Main Event with its limited uses (as it is currently in the game)
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@Sodsboy said:
So I've spent the past couple of days writing up a list of Trickster Issues and potential fixes both simple and experimental in hopes that they could be passed onto the devs. I for one enjoy the new killer but I feel as though the game loop can be a bit bothersome at times.
With that in mind: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VJG2Trbmv6bB8ZoDFt5mSFLOwsrIxOiMpFsk4bpzpak/edit?usp=sharing
This document is what I've managed to write down in the days of me playing him. I might add an addendum if there is enough traction and I do hope to write up a in-depth Trickster guide to hopefully alleviate some pressure off of new players picking him up for the first time.
Let me know what you think either in the comments down below or at my Twitter (@Sodsboy) or by adding me on Discord (Sodsboy#0655) I'd be more than willing to discuss possible changes to the Trickster or just the general balance of DBD as a whole.
See you in the fog!
-Sods
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/J8NNRTS8WEGK/tricksterwink.png
Hi, I feel like commenting on the issues you stated.
1) The slow down is related to his Range power, it's not an issue if the power is worth the slow.
2) Main Event can be worth using at many times, even though the activation time is a bit long if the killer could keep it, it would be good.
3) As it is by default, it's true that the recoil is annoying, but upon using purple add-ons that synergize well with one another, you realise how powerful he can be. Especially the ones which would help you land your shots better, such as Edge Of Revival Album.
4) Agreed. Even though the add-ons imply it should be possible, it's actually not. Do not forget to add in your documentation that Laceration Meters decrease on OTHER survivors upon landing a basic attack and hooking, now that's the real kick in your ballz if you were to run anti decay add-ons. Hah.
5) Depends on maps and add-ons. Some addons really make it easy on you for most of the match. Some build can even prevent altruistic squad moves while also punishing them for it. Rewarding you for keeping a high pressure on a group of survivors. I had many great matches when using such build, some even turned 0 hooks to 3 kills when we got to Endgame Collapse and that was with no endgame perks just the add-ons doing the work for me.
6) Definitely bad unless there's a decent justification for such design, currently the only one would be you get to shoot "Free Knives". It's a good one but for most of the match it's not good enough, especially if you're not using it for one reason or another.
7) This is a part I like, having to aim slightly to the right when firing with the left and aiming slightly to the left when aiming with the right. But it does make it harder to play. Still liking it, it adds some depth to the power, if it wasn't for the Laceration Decay, I'd definitely use it lot more on Long Range. It does work rather fine when the survivor is already injured in an open area.
8) Damage wise, you're right, however you can also use your long range shots as a way to gather information. You could shoot through gaps, toward gens or on an exit door lever to check if a survivor if there or not. I saved lot of time by just shooting at a specific spot. A knife travel at 1375% Move Speed, if you can aim properly it's worth it. You can also use Long Range to show a survivor you know where he's hidden and make him panic by shooting directly at him with Barbecue, maybe entice him to move away from a gen while you do something else.
9) True on default, wrong with some add-ons. I saw a clear difference depending on my build. Some of them really wrecks survivors.
10) False even on default as stated before but even more false when you equip add-ons. The purple ones add utility and damage. Trick Blades adds tons of fun that will joyfully surprise both the killer and the survivors when landing hits.
11) I disagree, being chased by Trickster is extremely fun, knowing he needs to hit me 8 times with his knives as a survivor is fairly reassuring. It's kinda like having 16 Health state instead of two but that may go down quicker, something like that. He's fun as a character too.
12) As it is right now, it's not a big deal. The stun duration isn't long to be really punishing at close range. And if a survivor enters a locker at long range then you'll just be getting closer which will end up in a grab or a hit later on. No problem with that at all. This will probably be more relevant if the power gets stronger, but for now most survivors simply run away and behind walls.
13) There's some logic to it, you get to fire with your power supposedly unrestricted by the usual slow you'd get. But with the other problems this does feel not needed. Something must be changed either remove the stun, upgrade speed on main event or remove the limited activation time but all the handicaps packed together do make it weaker.
14) Same as before, it does feel weird when put with the rest but assuming you use it when you're out of knives then it's fine to have a cooldown, you didn't have any more knife anyway. Maybe it's a way to entice the killer to use it at this specific time. On its own, it's not a big deal, adding on top of the rest is wrong.
15) He has LOT more identity than alot of other killers. Only Trickster and Plague actually speak a language, and Trickster speaks one we understand. His visuals are unique, his power is unique, his voicelines are unique, his music is unique. And he's the only other killer aside from Doctor who specifically expresses how excited he is when chasing from his voicelines and his giggles. All the other killers are lot less expressive, whether they actually enjoy killing or not.
I agree that Trick Blades could be part of his base kit considering how fun it is while still not being too easy to use. More of my thoughts on the whole kit here => Trickster kit - A straightforward analysis — Dead By Daylight
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Updated post, just to make sure mods see it. I should be done editing this now, think I covered everything I wanted.