RobinVouz
RobinVouz
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3667795#Comment_3667795
Indeed it's been pleasant ^🐽^
Regarding your points, I suppose where I sit is I don't see any value to tracking boxes at all now. Yeah you can do it, and interrupt survivors on jigsaw boxes... but why would you? Your time is more valuable than the survivors time, which means if a head pop is impossible, even if you see a head trapped survivor, there is basically no point to doing anything related to that survivor unless they are giving you a massively free down, or literally picking their nose and wasting huge swathes of time. Literally you just ignore a head trapped survivor, period, almost without exception.
On old Pig is was rarely profitably to go after survivors with head traps outside of forcing it with scream builds (at least since her RNG got locked to 12 searches guaranteed with 5 Jigsaw boxes, which was a great change)... but occassionally, it was profitable, and being able to identify those opportunities (especially if you accounted for that possibility coming up) was very satsifying, even if overall the Pig is weak... Like Trapper, it feels good when a plan comes together, even if more often than not you're eating pallets and teabags to the face 80% of the time.
There is a truth, that some players actively threw the game jsut to ensure a person died... I can't deny that... and I guess the conclusion of this debate is, if this nuanced part of her play has to be sacrificed on the altar to ensure that noone can be a jerk, then so be it... but... make sure you actually make it so that noone can be a jerk via nuking scream builds too and then go hard making her a viable dash killer.
I think the only thing I can contribute with is "this is why we can't have nice things". The fifth jigsaw box, the 10s nerf on tampered timer, and this change all exist purely due to the length people are willing to go to exploit the insta-kill mechanic. I very much agree that playing her tactically around jigsaw boxes, tracking timers, and sometimes getting a headpop was rewarding, but unfortunately these mechanics overall damage the health of the game where they are easy to take advantage of.
I do think the reaction to the changes was very overblown and should be tested in the live servers - one point I don't think I emphasised well in the post vs the video is the importance of raising the timer first and making changes second. Due to the nature of the traps, it's very difficult to balance a killer with insta-kill mechanics (much like Onryo too). The safest way you can improve these killers is to really nerf their ability to outright kill first to be able to increase the overall design space, then play around with additional numbers, then slowly bring the timer numbers down - much like exploring an increase to search times only really being a viable option if the timer wasn't constricted. These changes aren't necessarily set in stone, so it would be nice to see them explore nerfing screaming, and then readjusting numbers after. I'm also however very excited to see the general opinion of Pig post-changes first too.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3667705#Comment_3667705
Is fair points. Though I guess it depends on what you find fun I suppose. A lot of the arguments around this Pig rework tend to fall to the black and white extremes "Pig force head pops" vs. "Pig dash buffs and RBTs purelynfor slowdown". I personally saw it as far more of a grey argument.
Did you ever see the feedback in the PTB section from was worked on collaboratively with the Pig mains in this forum?
There is a link to the backup version:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3658118#Comment_3658118
But to keep it short, the Pig was a more tactile killer to my mind, with the weaker chase meaning she has to get downs purely via mind games, but the RBTs gave her the time to do so, while also providing a mind game in of themselves. Any good Pig player will tell you don't tunnel a head trapped survivor with Pig, as you aren't using the 3vs1 and slowdown it gives you if you do.
The more advanced way of playing around RBTs was to keep a mental tab of roughly how long it took a survivor to get a head trap off, and use that to determine your longer traps.
With this you could track where the boxes were and predict where survivors would likely path to get RBTs off. You can't bank on this, cause its still RNG, so you still chase other survivors off gens, but if you do keep tabs on it and you end up chasing into that part of the map, you will be finding yourself with more opportunities and pressure.
The main strength of RBTs was that they can lead to an easy down if a survivor runs mindlessly into you while on a time crunch, or if their teammates run you mindlessly towards them while trying to save themselves, only to mess their teammate up further. This is why coordinated teams tend to run rings around the Pig, these opportunities become quite rare. Deapite that being ready to capitalise on these opportunities is what separated good Pig players from really good ones. This more tactile way of looking at it was interesting, and certainly not as black/white as "force a survivor with a headtrap to die with no counter".
What has undeniably become a problem though is you can artificially create these scenarios currently with scream builds. This is what we highlight in our feedback post, and why we suggest tackling scream builds, not tne tactile play around her RBTs.
Ultimately your take would result in the Pig being decently strong. It would to my mind though remove all the above nuance from her RBTs and make her a relatively meh dash killer with a pretty uninteresting slowdown to compensate. I personally see more value going the anti-scream build route, as the Pig's slowdown is by far the most unique trait she has, while dash killers are a dime a dozen. The dash buffs are nice, but I'd be against jacking these up much further and making her a dash killer first and a slowdown killer second.
I don't think my suggestions takes anything away from her slowdown however. You're still able to track where boxes are, as you actively find boxes through patrolling generators, and can still time how long a survivor takes off traps. I disagree with this being an unnecessary annoyance (re: shared forum) as it's not going to be difficult to remember where these boxes are. Compare this to killers such as Pinhead, Wesker, Nemesis and Singularity who can interrupt survivors countering their power, but don't have auras for these counters. This change brings Pig in line with every other killer, and I believe is the only killer able to track these counters until now.
This update simply stops holding your hand and makes it more difficult to do so (and arguably increases the skill required in doing this). People used to Pig won't have an issue with this, as they'll generally know where boxes spawn from playing as Pig across difficult maps anyway. I also don't think this will be as detrimental to newer players as suggested (re: shared forum). Her slowdown is also still the same as it was and untouched - she still has that unique slowdown. The only thing this stops is forcing headpops, where forcing insta-kills isn't healthy for the game for any killer. You're still able to do the above, you just don't have the auras to do so at the very start of the game, nor are you able to have a survivor die in front of you. While +15 seconds is enough to deny a headpop (re: shared forum), I think it's worth remembering the vast majority of games are also solo queue where survivors won't delay generators, nor will they consider this. I think it's very important to look at this across skill levels and scenarios the most effective counters to Pig all require consistent teamwork and communication. Regardless you're still able to interrupt the box searches, it's just no longer right in front of you.
She's still able to get kills via mindgames, and if anything this is still the optimal way to play her (mindgames through concealing her terror radius, through her ambush via flicking or heading one direction only to head back, and of course remembering where box locations are). Survivors will still be running mindlessly into you, and I'd argue there's going to be more cases of trapped survivors running into you due to the increased timer making them risk the odd altruistic event here and there which overall leads to a more reactive game.
I do agree about how problematic scream builds are however, though feel I'm sitting on "keep the changes and remove scream interruptions", as the timer is unfortunately too low when it comes to playing against newer survivors who haven't had experience playing against Pig, which is also likely where this change came from. I think this is something important to keep in mind.
Regardless, I really do appreciate your engagement and even just taking the time to sift through the very long post. I really like the healthy discussion, and it's nice to see different perspectives on these changes 💜
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@UndeddJester said:
Interesting read, do let me try and summarise to make sure I've understood correctly: -
Nerfs: -
- Immunity to screams on Jigsaw boxes.
- Chase begins even when crouched within range of a survivor.
Buffs: -
- Decreased crouching time to be similar to Ghost Face's crouch/stand up speed.
- Increase ambush movement speed basekit.
- Decrease ambush charge time basekit.
- Increase Jigsaw boxes searches by 1-2 seconds, adding 12-24 seconds of slowdown overall (144 to 156-168).
Reworks: -
- Status effects removed from head trap add-ons and move to ambush.
Would be a fine direction to go I suppose. I do approve of removing screams from the equation. To my mind, this was the only problem the Pig had. You take away screams as a problem, then pretty much all issues of the Pig go away, and I feel like all the other changes to her RBTs aren't needed at all, since without screams Pig is just like any other M1 killer trying to tunnel (and because her dash isn't especially good, she is throwing the game by not using the slowdown of her RBTs, so this is fine IMO).
Though I would argue these changes you propose pushes even more empahsis on the Pigs dash over her RBTs... to the point the RBTs basically feel tacked on to her weaker (though not that weak anymore with your other changes) dash power in an attempt to keep her somewhat passably viable, and otherwise something you don't even think about. The obvious problem to me, is with the dash changes the Pig gets better at tunneling, and so basically becomes like every other killer in the game
I do find myself wondering why play Pig instead of say Chucky or Wesker, who don't even need to stop/crouch to use their dashes, who's skill expression doesn't need to be artificially propped up by a completely uninteractive time wasting mechanic. Since the head traps are an afterthought that we just ignore anyway, that effectively noone wants in the game, I can't help but feel like my main is becoming a discount dash killer... a weak knock off of other, better dash killers.
I think a lot of the backlash comes from the fact that going this route takes away the uniqueness of the Pig, homogenising her into the camp of dash killers with nothing particularly unique or interesting of her own.
Thanks for the reply! My proposed feedback overall does emphasise the power over the traps as I feel a passive power shouldn't be something that should be strong to begin with (see: Skull Merchant), versus a more powerful active power. Her active ability is overall still not as strong as say Chucky or Wesker, and one that's still situational and harder to use to tunnel survivors. I think the traps shouldn't be something Pig should think about other than putting on survivors, and instead it's something survivors need to think about. I think it's easy to ignore the fact that spending three seconds to put on a trap that steals up to 48 seconds of the survivors time (more with the Gears add-ons) is still an incredibly powerful ability regardless of whether you get a kill. Regardless, I feel a Pig tunneling a survivor with the ambush, which is an ability the survivor can interact with and try to avoid, is still overall much healthier than Pig forcing head trap kills at Jigsaw Boxes where survivors rarely have time to even heal up.
I think the Chucky and Wesker comparisons are very fair, but Chucky is notoriously strong to the point I feel he needs rebalanced himself, with Wesker being in an overall okay position, with perhaps his slowdown passive rebalanced in line with Pig's passive being brought down. I also think Chucky's stealth capabilities should further be reduced to help retain Pig's identity, as Chucky's stealth and dash are currently better than Pig's. I think it's worth remembering that Pig is one of, if not the original dash killer. While this is 'homogenising' her as a dash killer, I think this instead focuses on buffing her ability to make her stand out more compared to other dash killers which is why I've tried emphasising this. I'd disagree about her having nothing interesting of her own as she's still a stealth killer as well (which is again why I'd like Chucky to see a reduction in his stealth). Otherwise, she's currently a killer who can insta-kill with traps with a weak dash power, which just isn't healthy nor fun for the game in my opinion!
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Ormond is a near-perfect map *in comparison to most that we have*. While it does have its issues with deadzones, I feel it's the last map to need any reworks or additions, and felt it didn't need the update it received compared to the many other problematic/unbalanced maps (Swamp, Garden of Joy, Badham Preschool, Haddonfield, and RPD all come to mind as being more deserving of further changes)