Bakuriel
Bakuriel
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@Defnotmeghead said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3943266#Comment_3943266
So, initially the post said about 8 seconds to destroy the trap basekit, THEN 15 seconds of it being disabled on the ground (so trapper cannot re-trap that area for 15 seconds), before it regenerates into Trapper's Trapper Sack.
So you see a trap, 8 seconds and its destroyed, another 15 seconds and trapper has a "free" trap without having to collect any.Gotcha. I'm not sure that would work out very well. It's one of those things that might look okay on paper, but in practice it would establish some really unhealthy gameplay loops. If you give something a disabled vs destroyed mechanic, you have to have a very strong balance between the two options that makes each option viable in different situations.
As an example, if trapper places a trap near a loop or check spot, you have the option to either disable or destroy it. If you make removing traps permanently too easy, then that's what will happen most of the time. There'd be little stopping one person from going around the map actively destroying traps, or even two people if there's a bit of organization to them. Say one trap gets destroyed on one side of an area trapper is trying to control and he goes to address it. That survivor can either take loops in that area, or just pre run and leave the trapper to place a new trap somewhere else, or possibly even just wait that one out. Then, just as he gets there, another trap gets destroyed on the other end of the zone, and he either has to go deal with that or ignore it. Wouldn't take more than two people to start a game of hot potato with the trapper as long as he's taking around 8 seconds to get between each trap, worse yet if it's all four doing it. Trapper can't teleport to his traps like the Hag can, so he has to hoof it between them if something gets tripped, costing him a lot of time and positioning. Having the traps be more permanent threats is a massive part of what makes trapper work at all.
On the other hand, you'd have to consider the problem of making the traps too hard to remove. If the traps are too difficult to destroy, then there'd be little to no point even attempting to do it, and people would just go back to disabling them like they do now. You'd end up developing a mechanic to balance a character that never gets used and thus does nothing to actually balance them. There's a really fine line around punishing a Trapper too much for poor trap placement, which is why I said that idea would need to be looked very heavily into by Behavior to consider it at all.
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@Defnotmeghead said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3942647#Comment_3942647
Which is why I stated "[traps being disabled] for the next 15 seconds before it regenerates into Trapper's sack"
Basically, if you disarm any trap, after 15 seconds of doing so, Trapper will have an additional Trap in his sack to place. The trap disappears from that spot entirely after destroying it, it becomes trapper safe for 15 seconds, and Trapper doesnt have to walk back to collect his traps. If you dont see his traps, you can get caught in it. If you DO see his trap and disarm it as of currently, Trapper would need to walk back and reset it if its cross map, which is a huge weakness, but if he is right there, he can just reset it, which is a HUGE strength (especially for basement trapper). Giving the option to destroy it entirely, forces people to choose between disarming it and destroying it. Destroying it is only really worth it if he is near, but carries a risk.
And no, no items or perks. Toolboxes and Saboteur used to be able to sabotage traps (permanently), but relying on any items to combat any killer power specifically is something DBD is actively phasing out from. It's why Hag traps can be wiped now, instead of needing a flashlight.
It would still need something for long distance disarms to not force trapper to go back and collect it tho, maybe default it to destroying it if there is no terror radius? I dont know, its a concept afterall. But I think it allows for more leniency when it comes to buffing the posterboy of the gameThat's a fair point on the perk/toolbox, but I'm a bit confused about the rest of it. Are you suggesting it take 15 seconds to destroy the trap, or 15 seconds to respawn after it's been destroyed?
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@Defnotmeghead said:
My main issue with any Trapper rework/buff is that they never consider already quite strong parts of his kit that need to be nerfed to remain fair.
Like setting up shack basement properly becomes infinitely more easier by just the makeshift wrap rework and it being basekit. Just set up the traps before hand, just set up the traps, grab iron grasp and agitation and you get free kills.
What trapper needs, is a way for survivors to sabotage traps again in a way that they become unusable by trapper for a while (think current Skull Mechant drones being hacked). You can even give them an m1 to disarm the trap for the 2 seconds it takes now, but an m2 next to that that sabotages the trap after like 8 seconds, after which the Trap becomes destroyed in place(meaning no replacing the trap) for the next 15 seconds before it regenerates into Trapper's sack would give people proper counterplay to a shack basement Trapper. If you also give an m1 option for survivors to sabotage disarmed traps for an additional 8 seconds, Trapper also indirectly has a way of gathering traps that are cross map. Why is Trapper going to care much for a trap that already has been disarmed 3 times?
You can give Trapper SO many buffs if you give survivors the ability to sabotage the traps like that.I can understand wanting some counterplay against basement trapper, and I personally don't have enough experience with that specific situation to know what the proper counter play would be to it. Disabling and destroying traps might be a viable option, but you'd need to be very precise with how long it takes and how long its disabled to make that properly balanced. I know when I run survivor that I wouldn't mind giving up 8 seconds to flat out destroy a trap whenever I saw one, because I wouldn't see the point in disarming it at all. If I've got enough time to destroy it, there's no point to disabling it, and if I only have enough time to disable it, I'm better off using that time to make distance. Balancing around the basement would require input from Behavior, because we'd need to find out how much of an issue it currently is with Trapper, and what could potentially be effective in balancing it if it is too strong. I don't know the numbers so I can't really weigh in on that matter reliably.
If nothing else, I could see maybe giving toolboxes and Saboteur an option to sabotage the traps. It makes practical sense and it limits the ability to people who are specifically equipped for it, so we wouldn't get everyone running around breaking the traps all game long and rendering the power effectively useless. That gives someone with a toolbox the ability to solo rescue from a basement trapper if they manage their resources well. I know it does nothing really for a trapper that proxy camps the basement, but that's a different issue in and of itself.
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I've done my best to read through all the proposed changes so far, so if I missed something or address an issue that's already been addressed, I do apologize for it, but I did want to put my thoughts up here since there's an active discussion going on about Trapper.
Trapper is, and hopefully will always be, one of my favorite killers to play in DBD specifically because of the unique style of play he employs. Area control and denial are core parts of his play, and changing too much about that would make him feel like an entirely different killer or, as some have pointed out, just a carbon copy of another killer but slightly worse/better, depending on the changes. I like him as he is now, for the most part, but do agree that he needs some tweaks here and there to really find his stride.
First of all, I feel that Trapper should be weak in chase. He isn't intended to be a killer that drops his traps while actively chasing a survivor, that would miss the whole point of setting up a trap, which is supposed to be used for ambush. Can you use them to shut down a loop? Sure, but doing it in chase would be something that I'd argue should only be done to shut down a strong area and force a survivor into a different area. A poorly placed bear trap is effectively useless, yes, but so is any other power that misses its target. Clown misses a bottle? That bottle is useless and he has to throw another. It's why he has several of them in his base kit and can toss them out as often as he does. However, even if he did miss with that bottle, it still has value as a zoning tool because you can reliably guess that a survivor isn't going to run into that area unless they're forced to, so you can alter the direction of the chase even with that missed bottle. Trapper is similar, but the penalty for landing on one of his traps is massive, because it's the only power in the game that can outright immobilize a survivor. Other killers can hinder and even injure with their powers, but bear traps are the only thing that stop someone from moving entirely. That kind of power should be hard to use effectively, so knowing when and where to place them is absolutely key. I don't chase people with trapper, I redirect them. I don't have the resources to chase someone down for over a minute and get value out of it, and if I were slightly faster or better in loop, I know I and other players would be tempted to hold bad chases for much longer and end up losing pressure as a result. Trying to band-aid Trapper's chase by making him a lot better at it, but not so much that it changes his entire style, would actually make him lose more matches because the penalty for being baited away from his chosen zone would be larger. I personally thing that the haste effect after setting a trap is fine, because it encourages him to stay close to traps he's already set.
Second thing for me is what happens with Trapper at the beginning of a match. All of his traps, save the ones in his pack, are laid out all over the map, unarmed and quite often visible. Not only does this typically ruin the element of surprise that Trapper needs for his power to work, he's essentially the only killer in the game who starts the match having missed several of his ability uses just for loading into a game. You can argue locker placements all day long, but the killers who reload at lockers have ranged powers, so they can threaten a wide area around that locker both before and after leaving to reload. Trapper requires prediction and precision. The penalty for having to walk to a locker to pick up traps is actually a lot larger than it seems at first, and it also alters Trapper's gameplay loop so much that he stops playing anything like he did before. Trapper should move with intent and purpose, so I prefer his traps that stay where they were placed and need to be picked up if they lose value. I see that exchange as fair. I do not, however, think it makes sense for all of his traps to be laid out randomly at the start of the match. That fundamentally breaks his gameplay loop and punishes him just for loading into a match. I think trapper should start the match with all of his traps, and I think he should be able to pick them up as well. If that's too strong, just give him fewer traps overall and change the trapper sack to give him more traps but remove the ability to pick them up. Punish trap placements made by choice, not by rng.
Last point I want to make is about disarming and escaping traps. I'm not sure if traps remain active while someone is disarming them or not, but I feel like the traps should injure anyone trying to disarm it if it gets triggered in the middle of the attempt. I don't mind it just taking time to disarm the trap baseline, I think that works fine as is, but struggling free of it shouldn't be up to chance. Trappers don't like it when someone gets free in next to no time on the first try and survivors don't like it when they can't get free regardless of how often they try, that removes player agency from the situation. I say make it more like removing one of Pig's traps, but a bit simpler. Flat duration, just a few seconds long, enough to offer two skill checks, and successful skill checks shorten the timer. Failed skill checks snap the trap shut again and you have to start over. This rewards successful skill checks and punishes failed ones, just like the rest of the game does. Altruistic players moving to free someone from a trap should still be able to open the trap without skill checks, because you're immobilizing two players at that point.
I'm sure I've missed some details or forgotten to address something in the middle of typing all this, so feel free to point that out and I'll try to respond when I'm able.