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10% Haste should not be a thing on Endgame

Thirteen Thirteen
in General Discussions

Just had a match as The Pig on Groaning Storehouse, was an overall pretty rough game (1k 3 out) since its Pig but this is not about that.

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Its endgame. The gates are respectively at 12 and 9. 12 is open.

I hook Alan on 8.

Rotate back to two gates, cut off a death hook injured Ace, promptly hooking him. By the gate, there was a Kwon and Tapp who were healing to take hits for Ace, but they only got the heal off of Kwon. I force out Tapp, then immediately tail Kwon whos going for the pull. Since I already gave him free distance by downing→hooking ace and then forcing out Tapp, he has good distance, so makes it to 8 without me being able to tag him. I immediately hit Alan straight off the hook to strip his endurance, then just flat out chase him in a straight line, from 8 to 12. He just makes it to gate due to 10% haste. No pallets, no windows, just holding shift W. Kwon is still fully healthy, so downing him realistically was not an option too.

What are you even supposed to do here? I hook a survivor by a gate for pressure, cut off a rotation, interrupt a reset and force out bodies, thats perfect play, yet I still cannot secure a 2k on a C tier killer due to basekit handhold mechanics. Any other killer with an ounce of mobility or ranged attack would have gotten the 2k in this scenario, absolutely mind boggling.

Comments

  • Rock_KBob Rock_KBob

    Just based off your description without seeing the actual gameplay, there's 2 things I would've done differently that would've likely changed the game for you.

    1. Slugged Ace, THEN pressured the Kwon and Tapp at gate. I would've focused on injuring the Kwon which then forces both standing survivors to make the hard decision to chance the save injured or run out. If Ace was slugged far from the gate, I would force them both out or at least attempt to down one of them as well and hook them. If Ace was slugged very close, I would pick and hook because by the time I've done that, I am still going to get one of the two standing injured survivors regardless if they trying saving Alan.
    2. If I made exactly the moves you did up until Kwon was saving Alan, I would not have hit Alan knowing he had off hook haste plus the haste from you hitting him. It was far more likely you could've got a hit off on Kwon and downed him before he got back to gate. Alan may have tried to take a hit, but without seeing the gameplay honestly I can't tell in seconds how long from 8 to 12 that would take to say his endurance ran out or not. But this is why I would've done point 1 vs the moves you made.

    This of course isn't really touching your opinion about haste at all, moreso saying just based on what you described, the gameplay here could've been vastly different. Don't crucify me please because having it described is nothing like seeing the game itself, so just doing my best here for pointers that might help in future similar scenarios. Most here know Pig is difficult, especially on a map as large as Groaning Storehouse.

    So far as the haste is concerned though, I'm just curious to know what you suggest as an alternative in endgame? I want to talk on it, but feel I think it's too important to fully be rid of, so just want to know your thoughts.

  • Thirteen Thirteen

    @Rock_KBob said:

    Just based off your description without seeing the actual gameplay, there's 2 things I would've done differently that would've likely changed the game for you.

    1. Slugged Ace, THEN pressured the Kwon and Tapp at gate. I would've focused on injuring the Kwon which then forces both standing survivors to make the hard decision to chance the save injured or run out. If Ace was slugged far from the gate, I would force them both out or at least attempt to down one of them as well and hook them. If Ace was slugged very close, I would pick and hook because by the time I've done that, I am still going to get one of the two standing injured survivors regardless if they trying saving Alan.
    2. If I made exactly the moves you did up until Kwon was saving Alan, I would not have hit Alan knowing he had off hook haste plus the haste from you hitting him. It was far more likely you could've got a hit off on Kwon and downed him before he got back to gate. Alan may have tried to take a hit, but without seeing the gameplay honestly I can't tell in seconds how long from 8 to 12 that would take to say his endurance ran out or not. But this is why I would've done point 1 vs the moves you made.

    This of course isn't really touching your opinion about haste at all, moreso saying just based on what you described, the gameplay here could've been vastly different. Don't crucify me please because having it described is nothing like seeing the game itself, so just doing my best here for pointers that might help in future similar scenarios. Most here know Pig is difficult, especially on a map as large as Groaning Storehouse.

    So far as the haste is concerned though, I'm just curious to know what you suggest as an alternative in endgame? I want to talk on it, but feel I think it's too important to fully be rid of, so just want to know your thoughts.

    First of all, I appreciate the reply, given the massive spam of down votes without trying to present an argument of sorts is rather cowardly of the other forum members.

    Of course, if I had a VOD, I would show it, but was not recording anything atm and its impossible to translate gameplay into purely words.

    You make valid points, looking back, I did not disclose certain details such as I intentionally did not hit Kwon because I knew he had Lithe, he did not use it during the rotation (since he had good distance on me) so I intentionally tried to focus Alan as he had DH. It was probably the best call I had on the go, since an injured Kwon still could lithe to gate from that point, but this is more or less simply unlucky perk matchup rather than off the hook haste being a problem.

    I understand basekit hook protections during mid game, but imo endgame should have its own special rules, since its super dependent on how well survivors performed mid game. Preventing tunnel outs and surviving as 4 naturally comes with the benefit of having 3 people who can reset, open gates, pressure the save etc, but if the killer managed to remove a survivor or two before than, then it should not compensate for the lack of survivors. Basekit endurance and haste basically ensures that the unhooked person can hold W to gate from the other side of the map, especially against a no mobility killer who has no means to two tap with m2. Maybe make it 5%, I do not know, theres also the case of immediately having your exhaustion perk up in that case eitherway, so you are virtually untouchable if you have SB/Lithe even without haste honestly.

  • Rock_KBob Rock_KBob

    @Thirteen said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110922#Comment_4110922

    First of all, I appreciate the reply, given the massive spam of down votes without trying to present an argument of sorts is rather cowardly of the other forum members.

    Of course, if I had a VOD, I would show it, but was not recording anything atm and its impossible to translate gameplay into purely words.

    You make valid points, looking back, I did not disclose certain details such as I intentionally did not hit Kwon because I knew he had Lithe, he did not use it during the rotation (since he had good distance on me) so I intentionally tried to focus Alan as he had DH. It was probably the best call I had on the go, since an injured Kwon still could lithe to gate from that point, but this is more or less simply unlucky perk matchup rather than off the hook haste being a problem.

    I understand basekit hook protections during mid game, but imo endgame should have its own special rules, since its super dependent on how well survivors performed mid game. Preventing tunnel outs and surviving as 4 naturally comes with the benefit of having 3 people who can reset, open gates, pressure the save etc, but if the killer managed to remove a survivor or two before than, then it should not compensate for the lack of survivors. Basekit endurance and haste basically ensures that the unhooked person can hold W to gate from the other side of the map, especially against a no mobility killer who has no means to two tap with m2. Maybe make it 5%, I do not know, theres also the case of immediately having your exhaustion perk up in that case eitherway, so you are virtually untouchable if you have SB/Lithe even without haste honestly.

    Ah! Yes, Kwon having Lithe definitely changes things and would make me a lot more stressed out on how to go about that ending for sure 😅

    Gameplay completely aside, thank you for the kind reply and the input. I play 50/50 survivor and killer and I don't say that to make my opinion sound more valid at all, just to say I see both perspectives in this, which was why I was firstly wanting your thoughts on what change you could see happening.

    This is a hard one because changing the rules specifically for endgame for haste could be seen by some as the other side of the same coin of handholding, just for killers. But I also know how awful it is playing killers with weaker power and little mobility in general too. I play Billy most of the time, and the exact scenario you laid out would've been a totally different ballgame for him as I could've run ahead of both players and cut them off.

    If we went ahead and entertained the thought of reducing haste in endgame, maybe it could be specific percentages based on remaining alive survivors? For 3-4 survivors maybe 5-7% and 2 or less the full 10%? Or it could be proximity based, say if any survivors are within a certain distance, you get the lower haste percentage in exchange for that body being there to help protect?

    It's a bit of a slippery slope because in your same scenario, except with my killer, lowering their haste is just extra help for me and a senseless nerf for them. It leans more to me towards the argument that has been ongoing for sometime about the power creep DBD killers are experiencing and what can be done to balance that unfortunately.

  • Your_Dad_Playing_DbD Your_Dad_Playing_DbD

    Chalk it up to BHVR refusing to buff low-tier killers. Like you said, other better killers would have been after to get that 2nd kill in your situation. Nobody should be surprised that they see the same high tier killers in all their matches at higher skill levels.

  • Thirteen Thirteen

    @Rock_KBob said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110973#Comment_4110973

    Ah! Yes, Kwon having Lithe definitely changes things and would make me a lot more stressed out on how to go about that ending for sure 😅

    Gameplay completely aside, thank you for the kind reply and the input. I play 50/50 survivor and killer and I don't say that to make my opinion sound more valid at all, just to say I see both perspectives in this, which was why I was firstly wanting your thoughts on what change you could see happening.

    This is a hard one because changing the rules specifically for endgame for haste could be seen by some as the other side of the same coin of handholding, just for killers. But I also know how awful it is playing killers with weaker power and little mobility in general too. I play Billy most of the time, and the exact scenario you laid out would've been a totally different ballgame for him as I could've run ahead of both players and cut them off.

    If we went ahead and entertained the thought of reducing haste in endgame, maybe it could be specific percentages based on remaining alive survivors? For 3-4 survivors maybe 5-7% and 2 or less the full 10%? Or it could be proximity based, say if any survivors are within a certain distance, you get the lower haste percentage in exchange for that body being there to help protect?

    It's a bit of a slippery slope because in your same scenario, except with my killer, lowering their haste is just extra help for me and a senseless nerf for them. It leans more to me towards the argument that has been ongoing for sometime about the power creep DBD killers are experiencing and what can be done to balance that unfortunately.

    I have more hours on survivor than I do on Killer, its simply way too over tuned at this point.

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