Armageddon is here! (Find Your MMR Score)

WolfePhD

I'm sorry if this video has already been posted on the forums, but I physically had to stop what I was working on so I could make this post. This is BIG news — and its unfortunately going to cost BHVR a lot of money.

A major YouTuber found out that MMR is revealed through privacy data requests. I wonder if BHVR will change their mind in reaction to this YouTube video and make the data public. A real person, on payroll, has to work through all of these. All I know is that someone that works at BHVR is going to have a very, very, very, very, very, very long day at work for the next few weeks in response to the wave. My heart goes out to them. <3

https://youtu.be/OdSwIjpvA7k?si=eVRgMMYUV11w7sCJ

WolfePhD

@FMG15 said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873666#Comment_3873666

There's nothing they can do about it. Otherwise they would probably have to violate privacy terms

I am still a firm believer in playing by the rules. If BHVR wanted to deny my MMR privacy request on the grounds that I live outside GDPR protection, that is completely fair and their decision. I think it is wrong to lie to support just to get them to do what you want. I think it is even more wrong to pin a comment under the video encouraging people to lie to DBD support. We need to be honest.

Emeal

@Coffeecrashing said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873621#Comment_3873621

Having visible MMR doesn’t mean the game developers only care about high MMR.

@beater15 said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873621#Comment_3873621

Showing MMR has nothing to do with BHVR balancing the game, like you said they'll balance based on their own decisions and not the top players. So there's literally no reason not to show it, lower rated players can still express their opinions. But they shouldn't be arguing on why a certain killer is bad or good because they're just not good enough at the game.

I never said it did, I said BHVR does not only care about high mmr play. Which seems to be the purpose of MMR at least according to Choy in his video, he says that he wants people to show receipts of their MMR on their ideas for the game.

Even so even if you guys have no sinister purpose for MMR being added, the fact players such Choy admit they to use it police others in discussions of this videogame, is more than enough reason to not have it, like ever.

FMG15

@WolfePhD said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873672#Comment_3873672

I am still a firm believer in playing by the rules. If BHVR wanted to deny my MMR privacy request on the grounds that I live outside GDPR protection, that is completely fair and their decision. I think it is wrong to lie to support just to get them to do what you want. I think it is even more wrong to pin a comment under the video encouraging people to lie to DBD support. We need to be honest.

I can see that but I think more countries need more consumer friendly privacy laws. I'm German and some rules make things more complicated but if people want to have the same agency for privacy as we do I'm all for it.

crogers271

@WolfePhD said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873542#Comment_3873542

I guess I am looking at the bigger picture. What is currently happening between Choy and BHVR is a live communication event. BHVR has already set the rules ("No public MMR.") and Choy found a way to circumvent that. This is a reflection of the relationship between the player base and the developers. Choy found a metaphorical gun and pointed it at BHVR the first chance he got. No matter how BHVR responds to this situation, things have already escalated. Not to hostility per se, but I don't think happy people playing a happy game made by happy people would act like this. This is described in Choy's video where he acknowledges what he is doing isn't cool, but is justified because BHVR fired a whole bunch of people … and should have known they needed resources on standby for when the community wanted more control over the rulebook? To me, this is a power struggle. There is severe concern that the community is going to look for similar patterns to communicate with the developers moving forward. The reason I labeled this thread Armageddon is because this whole situation reflects a turning point in the community culture.

I don't remember a time in the past where the community intentionally gave developers … more work … to get something. Any resources spent working on frivolous privacy requests is less resources working on a full chapter, bug fixes, new cosmetics, etc.

I am not a lawyer, and I am not going to study and become one to fully understand the nuance behind global privacy laws. Deep in my gut, I know that most laws are written with built-in protections to avoid being exploited beyond the original intention. At the same time, there is an inherent right granted by the law — and two attempts per year for a massive audience is still a LOT of work that just magically appeared out of thin air because an upset player with an agenda isn't happy with the current state of the game. If there is an inherent time limit to GDPR requests, and if BHVR isn't able to keep up—I believe they would be fined accordingly. Part of me wonders if that was Choy's true intention — to clog the system with requests so the developers have to act or "pay" a cost.

This is described in Choy's video where he acknowledges what he is doing isn't cool, but is justified because BHVR fired a whole bunch of people … and should have known they needed resources on standby for when the community wanted more control over the rulebook?

Companies hire, and lay off, people as businesses grow, contract, and markets change. Looking at the numbers BHVR has increased their employee total by about 700 people over the last five years or so, do they get credit for that?

Also, most of BHVR's employees don't work on DbD (I want to say last time they released numbers its like 20%). BHVR is, and was before DbD, a developer that got hired by other companies to help out on game development. They've been partner developers on games like Mortal Kombat, Gears of War, Farcry, Borderlands, Tony Hawk Pro Skater, and a bunch of others.

The video game industry boomed during the pandemic, in the years that followed multiple companies needed to reduce production.

I don't remember a time in the past where the community intentionally gave developers … more work … to get something.

Nah, this has happened before. 'I encourage everyone to slug until they fix X' - 'trap Y killer in the game until they fix it', those things have gone around. It's not even unique to this game that a small portion of the community tries to intentionally manipulate the data.

It usually doesn't work. The percentage of players that actually follow streamers/forums is a fraction of the overall game community.

Any resources spent working on frivolous privacy requests is less resources working on a full chapter, bug fixes, new cosmetics, etc.

A tiny drop in the pot. 'We're sorry, support tickets are being processed more slowly due to unforeseen demand' or just hiring a couple of temps to deal with the influx of tickets for a few weeks until it stops.

radiantHero23

Sometimes not knowing something can be a blessing.

crogers271

@I_CAME said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873506#Comment_3873506

I just think it's weird to introduce a competitive matchmaking system and not tell people where they stand. Are they afraid people will call out how bad the system is when they see routinely see 10k hour streamers getting matched with low MMR survivors? Are they afraid people will use MMR to talk down to others? As if people aren't already doing that constantly. Everyone on this forum is super duper high MMR and only plays against comp players.

I just think it's weird to introduce a competitive matchmaking system and not tell people where they stand.

I'm going to use someone else's example, I don't remember who.

Imagine twenty people got together to play basketball. None of them know each other. A 21st person knows all of them and matches them up to try and keep even matches.

That's MMR. It's trying to create even match ups without stressing people about where they stand in the rankings. It's still casual, we're just trying to make sure the games are generally even.

beater15

@Emeal said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873627#Comment_3873627

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873628#Comment_3873628

I never said it did, I said BHVR does not only care about high mmr play. Which seems to be the purpose of MMR at least according to Choy in his video, he says that he wants people to show receipts of their MMR on their ideas for the game.

Even so even if you guys have no sinister purpose for MMR being added, the fact players such Choy admit they to use it police others in discussions of this videogame, is more than enough reason to not have it, like ever.

So you're saying 1 person is going to ruin it for everyone? That's not really how things work, of course there will be people that use MMR for arguments but that doesn't invalidate all the reasons to show it. People use the excuse of hidden MMR for arguments now, that's no different than what you're saying lol

Emeal

@beater15 said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873682#Comment_3873682

So you're saying 1 person is going to ruin it for everyone? That's not really how things work, of course there will be people that use MMR for arguments but that doesn't invalidate all the reasons to show it. People use the excuse of hidden MMR for arguments now, that's no different than what you're saying lol

Didnt say it was because of Choy or any singular person, I said people like him.

Why would hidden MMR be a point in an argument? I have never seen it.

It all depends on the kind of Gaming Experience that BHVR wants to create in this game, that will determine how much each of the arguments hold weight and or not. So they probably already have reasons to not add visible MMR because they could, but had no need.

LockerLurk

@FMG15 said:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873657#Comment_3873657

MMR also says nothing about skill. You can be skilled and just not sweating all the time. A worse player who just sweats all the time can have a higher MMR.

Exactly my point - so knowing MMR numbers is pointless. But people would still falsely use them to do exactly what you're saying anyway - "oh you're low MMR therefore, low skill, so your opinion doesn't matter." People already say that about anyone who, gasp, ever plays any way deemed "too cheesy" even once.

TheWheelOfCheese

There's so much in the video that's incorrect as well. He assumes that one's rating is limited to 2100 and therefore the maximum possible MMR you can reach — but that's the soft cap, not the hard cap. That is, your rating can go above 2100, but when being considered for matchmaking, anything above 2100 is treated as 2100.

Therefore, his assumption that we can just assume that the maximum "trusted" rating is equivalent to 2100 is just completely wrong. The maximum "trusted" rating will likely be far in excess of 2100.

There's also no proof that the lowest possible rating (0) correlates with 0 in the exported data. Some systems under the hood use 0 as the average, which would equate to I believe 1400 in Glicko, with negative numbers representing skill below the average.

This means that the range 0-"maximum trusted rating" does not exactly linearly scale to the range 0-2100. It might scale to something like 0-2600, or it might scale to 1400-2600. Or some other range entirely.

People who do not understand rating systems should not be making videos like this.