Monstrous Shrine Rework Shower Thoughts

kizuati

I've been thinking about this one somewhere in the back of my mind since Scourge Hooks got added. Give me your thoughts on it! (It could spawn scourge hooks just like the other perks,I just honestly couldnt manage to do the HTML for that properly)

(also wow,typos)

kizuati

Main thoughts behind this one - Basement Hooks being Scourge ones has been a debate. I thought this perk would fit into that niche well. I also think it needs to either remove the self-unhook chance reduction or not show it - maybe it could even make survivors be unable to self-unhook?

Overall this should make some hooks more scary,punish leaving people on hook and prioritizing gens and give a useless perk a buff.

InvadeGames

IMO its a pretty worthless perk. how many games have any saves that take place within the last 10 seconds of a survivor struggle on hook? imo feels its value is far too inconsistent to be worth taking a perk slot when you could throw on one of a dozen other consistently value generating perks.

That being said i have literally never used the perk so my position may be worthless. let me know if so.

kizuati

@InvadeGames said:

IMO its a pretty worthless perk. how many games have any saves that take place within the last 10 seconds of a survivor struggle on hook? imo feels its value is far too inconsistent to be worth taking a perk slot when you could throw on one of a dozen other consistently value generating perks.

That being said i have literally never used the perk so my position may be worthless. let me know if so.

Honestly,you'd be surprised! Combo this with something that brings a painful choice between losing a lot of gen-time or going for the rescue and it could be really impactful. There are so many times survivors are barely making it before stage 2 and that could be very,very impactful on them.

InvadeGames

@kizuati said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2947681#Comment_2947681

Honestly,you'd be surprised! Combo this with something that brings a painful choice between losing a lot of gen-time or going for the rescue and it could be really impactful. There are so many times survivors are barely making it before stage 2 and that could be very,very impactful on them.

ohhhhh good point. I didnt think of the stage 1 to 2 speed. So you could more easily cause a 2 hook kill instead of a 3 hook kill if i am understanding correctly?

In that case never mind, i can see its utility more with the right build

TWiXT

Here's my original redesign for the perk and a decent enough explanation:

Monstrous Shrine:

Buff the perk to - Survivors have 3 less escape attempts, and sacrifice progresses 25% faster when hooked in the basement.

Explanation - 25% of 2 mins is 30 seconds, or subtracting 15 seconds from each hook phase so 45 seconds per hook phase total, adding in the fact that unless the survivors bring in Slippery Meat, they'll have to be rescued by their teammates... This makes being hooked in the basement a much more dire situation than current Monstrous Shrine.

Sometime after Hag came out the devs doubled the hook time from 1 min to 2 meaning survivors used to only have 30 seconds per hook phase, And current monstrous Shrine was designed with these the old timings in mind but was still underwhelming even back then. This suggestion is a sort of middle ground between how hooking used to be in the early days of the game, and how it is now, while only applying to the basement hooks, and finally giving Monstrous Shrine the buff it needs to be a threat that creates urgency for the survivor team.

Making it a Scourge hook, even with my change would be good, however... only 4 scourge hooks can spawn in a map, meaning that if you ever took this, along with any other Scourge hook perks, you'd have to make the rest of your build entirely centered around "Basement Builds" in order to gain the maximum potential of your other scourge hook perks, and to me, that just makes it far worse.

However, if it had a caveat that the Basement hooks only counted for 1 scourge hook, then you'd basically get a net gain of 3 scourge hooks possible on the map, bringing your total to 7 (4 in the basement + 3 decided by RNG across the map) with only the basement ones taking advantage of the new Monstrous Shrine's effect.

That, honestly, would make it pretty worth it tbh.

Also, for an idea of other killer perks I made fix suggestions on, Look here:

@TWiXT said:

Suggested changes:

Monstrous Shrine:

Buff the perk to - Survivors have 3 less escape attempts, and sacrifice progresses 25% faster when hooked in the basement.

Explanation - 25% of 2 mins is 30 seconds, or subtracting 15 seconds from each hook phase so 45 seconds per hook phase total, adding in the fact that unless the survivors bring in Slippery Meat, they'll have to be rescued by their teammates... This makes being hooked in the basement a much more dire situation than current Monstrous Shrine.

Sometime after Hag came out the devs doubled the hook time from 1 min to 2 meaning survivors used to only have 30 seconds per hook phase, And current monstrous Shrine was designed with these the old timings in mind but was still underwhelming even back then. This suggestion is a sort of middle ground between how hooking used to be in the early days of the game, and how it is now, while only applying to the basement hooks, and finally giving Monstrous Shrine the buff it needs to be a threat that creates urgency for the survivor team.

Spies From the Shadows:

Overhaul the perk to - The Crows no longer respond to your presence, you see the auras of all disrurbed crows within 36 meters of you, and disturbed crows are 100% louder to you within that range.

Explanation - This proposal gets rid of the confusing/annoying explosion sound notifications and replaces it by making the crows noisier so you can differentiate between them and a gen popping, you get no false signals since crows no longer respond to you, and they basically become little signal flares to tell you where survivors are. If this change were to happen, Spies would become an overall better tracking tool, and really fit the description of the perk which says: "The Crows found in the world can communicate directly with you." Besides, survivors still have 2 perks that defeat this: Calm Spirit & Urban Evasion, as well as the crouching mechanic, so it's not like this would be an un-counterable or broken change for the perk. If they also put some more crows in dead zones, that would be nice for helping this perk gain a better level of consistency and usefulness (Seriously, Rotten fields features no Scarecrows, but the crows completely avoid the corn field?).

Surge:

Remove the cooldown and the Basic Attack requirement.

Explanation - Honestly this has been hotly debated in the forums since Surge came out because the fact remains that in order to activate it at all, you have to successfully down a survivor while within range of a gen. Chasing and downing a survivor with Basic attacks takes enough time as it is, especially if they were healthy when the chase started, and the minor 8% damage Surge does if it activates is hardly consequential since it would take 12 survivor downs in order to achieve a stacked 96% damage to 1 or more gens. PGTW does 300% damage to gens in the same amount of hooks, and Ruin Does more damage per second without needing to down or hook a survivor. On average it takes a decent m1 killer 20 seconds to down a survivor, and that's not counting the time to find the survivor to chase and down in the first place, but say you snowballed survivors 1 after the other within 20 seconds per chase, that's a maximum of 4 downs in 80 seconds, and a total of 32% damage between multiple gens since survivors won't stay around a downed survivor, much less a gen if getting chased, so overall... you spread the damage out over a possible 4 gens at most over 80 seconds, and that's the best case scenario if this change was implemented. While this won't improve the overall damage Surge can do, removing the basic attack requirement will at least allow killers with damaging powers to get some use out of it making it more universal to the killer roster, and removing the cooldown will allow it to become a slightly more consistent annoyance to survivors. It won't make it any more powerful than any other existing gen defense perks, but at least it would be more useful.

Oppression:

Remove or significantly lower the cooldown.

Explanation - This perk doesn't even add extra damage to the gens it affects (unless survivors fail the "Difficult" skill check), only applies the base regression rate, and can randomly target gens that have 0 progress on them, but for some awful reason the devs decided that it was so powerful that it deserved DOUBLE the cooldown time (80 seconds) of Surge? At least Surge won't activate on gens that have 0 progress... Why does Oppression deserve such an excessive cooldown time? If it's because of the skill check, that's a laughable annoyance more than anything that could be considered a threat to any decent-good survivors, and only becomes a problem against noobs, who honestly rank up and gain skill fast enough that it's pretty much a moot point to keep it so laughably underpowered.

Fire Up:

Buff the perk- Increase it from 4% to 5%.

Explanation - This is a ridiculously underpowered perk because in order to gain any benefit from it, the killer has to sacrifice the objectives they are supposed to protect, in other words "lose the game". It's designed to give killers a slight edge in chases in order to try and protect the last gens from completing. The overall problem however is that 4% amounts to 12% when 3 gens are completed, and 20% when all 5 are done, meaning that they gain Brutal Strengths chase advantage on pallet breaking only after the survivors have completed all of the gens when there's not many unused pallets left in the map, and Bamboozles vault speed advantage when there is only 1 gen remaining. This doesn't help the killers in their desperate attempts to stop the final gens from completion at all, and by the time it's reached its maximum potential, the survivors are already rushing out the gate.

However, if you bump it up just 1%... now we have a perk that gains Bamboozles advantage at 2 gens remaining, and Brutal Strengths at 1 gen remaining, with an added bonus to both if 0 gens remain. This would actually help the killers defend the final gens, and give them enough of a chase advantage if all gens are completed to try and stop the survivors from escaping. Suddenly this goes from an "underpowered" perk to a "Decent" one, and all it takes is a simple 1% boost in strength.

Insidious:

Overhaul the perk to - Reduces your Terror Radius and Red Stains Brightness by 5% for every 4/3/2 seconds you refrain from chasing or injuring survivors, upon reaching 100% reduction, you gain the Undetectable Status. Initiating a chase or injuring a survivor regains your TR and Red stain at a rate of 20% per second, once this has returned Insidious has a 40 second cooldown.

Explanation - This perk has been a bane on the game since it came out since it seems to have been specifically designed for the sole purpose of camping hooks. With this change however, a killer loses half their TR for spending 10 seconds away from a chase or injuring a survivor, and becomes Undetectable at 20 seconds. This is mostly meant for anti-stealth play, or for gaining a slight advantage in the early game wherein the killer is initially searching the map for survivors. Ultimately, it changes the perk from one encouraging camping, to one that rewards the killer with an advantage if the survivors are being too sneaky/evasive, and allows them to get the drop on survivors more often. The cooldown is necessary for this one because otherwise it would be heavily abuseable.

As for the survivors going up against this updated version, Premonition or Spine Chill still proc on stealth killers, so relying solely on the TR reduction is still no guarantee against those kinds of perks, and gives the survivors an advantage. Up until then, unless the killer has spent 20 seconds avoiding survivors, Aura reading perks like OoO, Alert, and Kindred still have an advantage for tracking the killer.

That's my list so far. Anyone else want to contribute your own ideas, or criticize the concepts I've listed? Feel free to speak up!

kizuati

@InvadeGames said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2947684#Comment_2947684

ohhhhh good point. I didnt think of the stage 1 to 2 speed. So you could more easily cause a 2 hook kill instead of a 3 hook kill if i am understanding correctly?

In that case never mind, i can see its utility more with the right build

Yeah! I'd also love to see this buffed along with Kinship or something,create more perks that fight against each other like that!

kizuati

@TWiXT said:

Here's my original redisign for the perk and a decent enough explanation:

Monstrous Shrine:

Buff the perk to - Survivors have 3 less escape attempts, and sacrifice progresses 25% faster when hooked in the basement.

Explanation - 25% of 2 mins is 30 seconds, or subtracting 15 seconds from each hook phase so 45 seconds per hook phase total, adding in the fact that unless the survivors bring in Slippery Meat, they'll have to be rescued by their teammates... This makes being hooked in the basement a much more dire situation than current Monstrous Shrine.

Sometime after Hag came out the devs doubled the hook time from 1 min to 2 meaning survivors used to only have 30 seconds per hook phase, And current monstrous Shrine was designed with these the old timings in mind but was still underwhelming even back then. This suggestion is a sort of middle ground between how hooking used to be in the early days of the game, and how it is now, while only applying to the basement hooks, and finally giving Monstrous Shrine the buff it needs to be a threat that creates urgency for the survivor team.

Making it a Scourge hook, even with my change would be good, however... only 4 scourge hooks can spawn in a map, meaning that if you ever took this, along with any other Scourge hook perks, you'd have to make the rest of your build entirely centered around "Basement Builds" in order to gain the maximum potential of your other scourge hook perks, and to me, that just makes it far worse.

However, if it had a caveat that the Basement hooks only counted for 1 scourge hook, then you'd basically get a net gain of 3 scourge hooks possible on the map, bringing your total to 7 (4 in the basement + 3 decided by RNG across the map) with only the basement ones taking advantage of the new Monstrous Shrine's effect.

That, honestly, would make it pretty worth it tbh.

This design still allows to spawn 4 hooks across the map ALONGSIDE the Basement hooks being Scourge. The idea is to make a wildcard that will sometimes advance survivors to the next stage faster than anticipated.

C3Tooth

The problems of this perk is: Currently its worthless.

But if just a simple change, like becoming a Scourge perk that spawn random around the map. This perk can be extremely powerful when combined with camping play style.

This perk needs a whole rework to a different purpose. Not changing number.

kizuati

@C3Tooth said:

The problems of this perk is: Currently its worthless.

But if just a simple change, like becoming a Scourge perk that spawn random around the map. This perk can be extremely powerful when combined with camping play style.

This perk needs a whole rework to a different purpose. Not changing number.

I dont see how this really makes camping more efficient that much. It's 5s-ish save time. Enough to make clutch stage 1-2 scenarios,not make camping effective. Besides,I didn't suggest changing the numbers of it.

TWiXT

@kizuati said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2947697#Comment_2947697

This design still allows to spawn 4 hooks across the map ALONGSIDE the Basement hooks being Scourge. The idea is to make a wildcard that will sometimes advance survivors to the next stage faster than anticipated.

I acknowledge that, but also make a fair point with my change, that you're idea, while more likely to be adopted by the devs, is still far too lenient on the survivors to be seen as useful by killers (like Fire Up). 9% of 2 minutes is nothing, 9% of penalty to escape attempts doesn't stack up enough to keep them from attempting 3 tries for it, much less 6 if they bring in Slippery Meat.

Understand, I thought long and hard about the change I suggested, and went through many different versions before I setteled on one that I thought would make it potent, but not broken. You on the otherhand seem to be playing it safe. Yes It gives you the potential of 8 Scourge hooks, which is awesome, but only applies it's effect to the basement hooks, and tbh, because the basement hooks are all in one place, they might as well count as only 1 hook location, so Overall killers gain a + 1 scourge hook advantage, but no further or meaningful impact to the survivors.

I don't mean to tear you down, as I like where you're going with this, but you need to take into account that survivors already have multiple counters for this perk, if not basement hooking in general, which has only further cemented it's place in the "trash bin", and if you want to see it renewed, you have to give it something survivors will have to deal with or risk losing, while at the same time not making it "OP". It's a tough bit of thin ice to skate, I know, but that's just how this game works.

If your suggestion doesn't add enough meaningful changes to give it an impact on the current game environment/meta, then the perk will be tossed back into the trash bin by the players. Even My suggestion is probably not enough to put it on the radar for most killer mains, because while it decreases the time survivors spend on the hook, it only does so by 15 seconds per hook phase, which survivors have counters for already, so if anything, all my revision will do is put those counters back on the map for survivor mains, and make it useless anyways.

It's the sad truth of this community, no matter how clever you are, on any suggestion, they will always find a counter for it, and if they don't it's "OP" and will never happen.

kizuati

@TWiXT said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2947701#Comment_2947701

I acknowledge that, but also make a fair point with my change, that you're idea, while more likely to be adopted by the devs, is still far too lenient on the survivors to be seen as useful by killers (like Fire Up). 9% of 2 minutes is nothing, 9% of penalty to escape attempts doesn't stack up enough to keep them from attempting 3 tries for it, much less 6 if they bring in Slippery Meat.

Understand, I thought long and hard about the change I suggested, and went through many different versions before I setteled on one that I thought would make it potent, but not broken. You on the otherhand seem to be playing it safe. Yes It gives you the potential of 8 Scourge hooks, which is awesome, but only applies it's effect to the basement hooks, and tbh, because the basement hooks are all in one place, they might as well count as only 1 hook location. Overall killers gain a + 1 scourge hook advantage, but no further or meaningful impact to the survivors.

I don't mean to tear you down, as I like where you're going with this, but you need to take into account that survivors already have multiple counters for this perk, which has further cemented it's place in the "trash bin", and if you want to see it renewed, you have to give it something survivors will have to deal with or risk losing, while at the same time not making it "OP". It's a tough bit of thin ice to skate, I know, but that's just how this game works.

If your suggestion doesn't add enough meaningful changes to give it an impact on the current game environment/meta, then the perk will be tossed back into the trash bin by the players. Even My suggestion is probably not enough to put it on the radar for most killer mains, because while it decreases the time survivors spend on the hook, it only does so by 15 seconds per hook phase, which survivors have counters for already, so if anything, all my revision will do is put those counters back on the map for survivor mains, and make it useless anyways.

It's the sad truth of this community, no matter how clever you are, on any suggestion, they will always find a counter for it, and if they don't it's "OP" and will never happen.

I do not in any way intend for this perk to be a meta perk. I intend to give a net buff to a currently really sad perk and provide a QoL option for Scourge Hook builds,while also throwing in a fun wildcard into the games.

I also now realize that maybe we could get away with buffing the hook progression speeds as long as the killer is not nearby the hook - turn them off or slow them down if they're near.

TWiXT

@kizuati said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2947725#Comment_2947725

I do not in any way intend for this perk to be a meta perk. I intend to give a net buff to a currently really sad perk and provide a QoL option for Scourge Hook builds,while also throwing in a fun wildcard into the games.

I also now realize that maybe we could get away with buffing the hook progression speeds as long as the killer is not nearby the hook - turn them off or slow them down if they're near.

My suggestion didn't intend it to be "meta" either. Honestly there's only 3 killers (4 if you include Demogorgon) I can think of that are even capable of putting it to use in order to create pressure on the survivors: Trapper, Hag, and sigh... Bubba. Regardless, the idea remains that it needs to be potent enough for at least a consideration if not for simple "meme" builds, really anything that brings it from the Trash Bin, to something, Some Killers might pick to gain an advantage is better than being as useless as it is right now. Otherwise, it's just a waste of BP.

kizuati

@TWiXT said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2947728#Comment_2947728

My suggestion didn't intend it to be "meta" either. Honestly there's only 3 killers (4 if you include Demogorgon) I can think of that are even capable of putting it to use in order to create pressure on the survivors: Trapper, Hag, and sigh... Bubba. Regardless, the idea remains that it needs to be potent enough for at least a consideration if not for simple "meme" builds, really anything that brings it from the Trash Bin, to something, Some Killers might pick to gain an advantage is better than being as useless as it is right now. Otherwise, it's just a waste of BP.

I disagree to be honest. I think your outlook is a little too bleak. I think this idea could be lots of fun and provide quite a bit of value in a lot of skill brackets.

TWiXT

"If you are trying to help someone, you tell them the truth. If you're trying to help yourself you tell them what they want to hear." - Thomas Sowell

You may be thinking I'm bleak, but I'm being honest.

The fact remains that 9% of 120 seconds = 10.8 seconds total, or 5.4 seconds per hook phase.

9% added on to the current "failed" hook escape penalty (which at base is 33%) = 75% penalty after 2 escape attempts AND still lets them pull off a 3rd attempt.

+1 scourge hooks (i know it's technically 4, but I've already explained why I feel its only 1) is a bonus no doubt, but a very underpowered one, as your change only applies to the said 5th scourge hook in the basement, and doesn't really present any further threat to the survivors.

Add in the survivors counters to hooks and especially basement hooks, such as: Slippery Meat, Deliverance, DS, BT, Desperate Measures, Babysitting (now called Guardian), etc. as well as the entire Body-blocking mechanic to prevent killers from making basement hooks blah blah blah... I hope you understand where I'm coming from.

I'm not being "bleak" on purpose, I'm being honest, as I want to help you! Why do I want to help you? Simple: While I don't think my change is broken at all, and would actually improve things for the perk, you have a fresher mind than I do, and learning from my mistakes will probably inspire you to suggest better.

"Never bite the hand that feeds" turns out to only be half true, what's missing is "and never turn down one offered to help you".

dugman

@TWiXT said:

Here's my original redisign for the perk and a decent enough explanation:

Monstrous Shrine:

Buff the perk to - Survivors have 3 less escape attempts, and sacrifice progresses 25% faster when hooked in the basement.

Explanation - 25% of 2 mins is 30 seconds, or subtracting 15 seconds from each hook phase so 45 seconds per hook phase total, adding in the fact that unless the survivors bring in Slippery Meat, they'll have to be rescued by their teammates... This makes being hooked in the basement a much more dire situation than current Monstrous Shrine.

Sometime after Hag came out the devs doubled the hook time from 1 min to 2 meaning survivors used to only have 30 seconds per hook phase, And current monstrous Shrine was designed with these the old timings in mind but was still underwhelming even back then. This suggestion is a sort of middle ground between how hooking used to be in the early days of the game, and how it is now, while only applying to the basement hooks, and finally giving Monstrous Shrine the buff it needs to be a threat that creates urgency for the survivor team.

Making it a Scourge hook, even with my change would be good, however... only 4 scourge hooks can spawn in a map, meaning that if you ever took this, along with any other Scourge hook perks, you'd have to make the rest of your build entirely centered around "Basement Builds" in order to gain the maximum potential of your other scourge hook perks, and to me, that just makes it far worse.

However, if it had a caveat that the Basement hooks only counted for 1 scourge hook, then you'd basically get a net gain of 3 scourge hooks possible on the map, bringing your total to 7 (4 in the basement + 3 decided by RNG across the map) with only the basement ones taking advantage of the new Monstrous Shrine's effect.

That, honestly, would make it pretty worth it tbh.

A quick suggestion - have Monstrous Shrine make the basement hooks count as additional Scourge Hooks on top of the 4 that are present on the main map. (So basically the basement is a 5th Scourge Hook site.). That makes that feature an actual benefit versus just a sidestep.

15 seconds less per hook stage is probably ok. It might be verging on being slightly too fast, especially considering the basement itself is already intentionally designed to be a dangerous spot to be hooked because of its lone narrow entrance, but I agree that the current version of Monstrous Shrine is way too weak.

Honestly I'd just as soon see the whole "self-escape" feature be replaced by something else entirely. Pulling yourself off a hook is already a terrible idea most of the time so discouraging it just makes the survivor play smarter. I'd rather see something else like a condition inflicted on survivors who are pulled off the basement hooks or combine Territorial Imperiative's aura reading into Monstrous Shrine as a single basement build perk.

TWiXT

@dugman said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2947697#Comment_2947697

A quick suggestion - have Monstrous Shrine make the basement hooks count as additional Scourge Hooks on top of the 4 that are present on the main map. (So basically the basement is a 5th Scourge Hook site.). That makes that feature an actual benefit versus just a sidestep.

15 seconds less per hook stage is probably ok. It might be verging on being slightly too fast, especially considering the basement itself is already intentionally designed to be a dangerous spot to be hooked because of its lone narrow entrance, but I agree that the current version of Monstrous Shrine is way too weak.

Honestly I'd just as soon see the whole "self-escape" feature be replaced by something else entirely. Pulling yourself off a hook is already a terrible idea most of the time so discouraging it just makes the survivor play smarter. I'd rather see something else like a condition inflicted on survivors who are pulled off the basement hooks or combine Territorial Imperiative's aura reading into Monstrous Shrine as a single basement build perk.

to be fair, 25% (15 seconds per hook phase) was my limit for what I Thought the devs might consider as a viable and non-broken option, especially when it only applies to the basement hooks. With the introduction of Scourge hooks however, I can totally see it applying its effect at maximum to the basement hooks, but also applying the old 9% minimum to the other scourge hooks that spawn on the map. That way, and as a compromise, its never OP, but also not totally useless to any killer who isn't doing a full basement build. To me that feels right, but I still insist that if it's gonna apply the sacrifice rate reduction time to survivors on certain hooks in the environment, it damn well should be better than 9% for them to even take notice. Maybe 15% would suffice, sigh, regardless currently the survivors flat out defeat the killers when it comes to hooks vs. gen completion speed, and the devs know that.

I'm not advocating for "fixing what isn't broken", only advising that they consider "what's beautiful lies in the eye of the beholder", that, at least should explain where I stand.

LapisInfernalis

I had the idea a while back for this perk to make it impossible to self-unhook in the basement without deliverence or make the perk apply to a portion of perks on the map too (which is basically what scourge hooks are).

So this seems pretty OK. I also like the idea of the perk making basement hooks scourge hooks as well.

TWiXT

ooh I know, we should offer the survivors a table with punch and cookies in the basement! No one can refuse punch and cookies!

/s

kizuati

@TWiXT said:

ooh I know, we should offer the survivors a table with punch and cookies in the basement! No one can refuse punch and cookies!

/s

chest defender bubba buff

kizuati

Hey this got implemented. Neat!