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If ruin/undying gets nerfed the NOED meta will definitely come back, just saying.

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  • Mister_xD Mister_xD

    i would take a NOED killer over a Ruin Tinkerer Undying killer any day.


    at least with NOED i feel like its my fault that i get punished because i didnt do bones. Ruin Undying Tinkerer just punishes me for whatever i try to do - trying to do gens? Tinkerer punishes me for it and Ruin resets the progress. trying to do bones? Undying punishes me for that.

    (the punishment of Undying and Tinkerer in both cases being an location reveal to the killer, resulting in getting chased off of whatever i was trying to do)

  • Farshad7913 Farshad7913

    its actually the same, in both cases you get punished for tunnel visioning on gens and ignoring totems. but with ruin/undying you take away 2 perks while with noed just one.

  • GoodBoyKaru GoodBoyKaru

    The NOED meta never left lol. I've faced so many people today with NOED that it's not even funny anymore.

    Common factor between them all? They'll tunnel one person out the game, apply no pressure, and then crutch kills with NOED because you need the gens done ASAP when someone's getting tunneled as a hope they'll be able to escape lol.

    NOED went nowhere, unfortunately. Bad players will always use it.

  • Bullettimegod Bullettimegod

    @GoodBoyKaru said:

    The NOED meta never left lol. I've faced so many people today with NOED that it's not even funny anymore.

    Common factor between them all? They'll tunnel one person out the game, apply no pressure, and then crutch kills with NOED because you need the gens done ASAP when someone's getting tunneled as a hope they'll be able to escape lol.

    NOED went nowhere, unfortunately. Bad players will always use it.

    I have to ask you this.

    If a killer runs noed. Tunneled no one. Got the 4k. But 2k came from noed (they were red rank swf good at spreading pressure.) And the last two were on death hook anyways. Does this mean the killer relied on noed or was it the surv fault for not doing bones? (Also said killer got perfect score)

  • Mister_xD Mister_xD

    @Farshad7913 said:

    its actually the same, in both cases you get punished for tunnel visioning on gens and ignoring totems. but with ruin/undying you take away 2 perks while with noed just one.

    with the difference that NOED allows you to safely do them, while Ruin Undying Tinkerer reveals your aura when you try, creating a lose - lose situation where you either reveal your location when you do a gen or when you do a totem.

    honestly, all Undying needs to be balanced is the aura reveal being taken away completely / limited to Hexes.

    that way it would be a lot more fair for solo teams, be less oppressive, get rid of the lose - lose scenario and still fullfill its main purpose of respawning other Hexes (Ruin).

  • GoodBoyKaru GoodBoyKaru

    @Bullettimegod said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1830651#Comment_1830651

    I have to ask you this.

    If a killer runs noed. Tunneled no one. Got the 4k. But 2k came from noed (they were red rank swf good at spreading pressure.) And the last two were on death hook anyways. Does this mean the killer relied on noed or was it the surv fault for not doing bones? (Also said killer got perfect score)

    There can be good people that use the perk. If a killer has a perfect 32k score then they had to have, at least, 3 hooked 3 people. ZubatLEL has also used the perk before iirc, and he's a great killer.

    I never said everyone who uses the perk is #########, I said ######### players use the perk. Inductive conclusion that's probable, not a deductive one that's definite.

    or was it the surv fault for not doing bones?

    This, though. I have a problem with this. I have a substantial problem with this.

    In a SWF I can coordinate how many totems have been cleansed. I can say where those totems were, when I did them, etc etc. In solo, I can't do that. I don't know how many of them are left, where they've been cleansed and when. When I've done three generators and four totems, then I'm the one that gets punished by going down to NOED in the endgame because my solo teammates couldn't do one singular totem, is it my fault for just being bad? Is it my fault that, in a team game with random players who throw shack pallet without a stun at 5 gens and go down 30 seconds later, who cannot hit skillchecks and urban evade at the corner of the map at red ranks, they couldn't do a single totem between them?

    Just do bones is flawed. Just do bones is so incredibly flawed. It's like saying "just don't go down" when talking about old moris; oh I'd love to but my teammates used every possible resource known to mankind and ruined the economy.

    "Oh, then use a totem perk!"

    What a great idea! Let me slot it into my build alongside Iron Will, Off The Record, Spine Chill (because that's how you counter Stridor Spirit according to these forums), Windows Of Opportunity, Kindred, Bond (knowing what my teamamtes are doing), Decisive Strike, Borrowed Time (to help my team vs campers + tunnelers, and to help me vs a camper and tunneler), Resilience (alongside Spine Chill to help with the atrocious "hit validation" that's done nothing but make the survivor experience worse), and-

    Oh, oh wait. that's 10 perks.

    Last I checked there were only 4 slots available.

    Untitled Image

    Just need to get better, I guess.

    NOED is atrocious in solo and managable in a SWF- you know, when NOED is actually needed to have.

    If you want my full thoughts on the perk, here's a thread I made about it a while back:

    @GoodBoyKaru said:

    A few things before I begin:

    For the duration of this post, I will be referring to Hex: No One Escapes Death as "NED". This is to save me typing out "Hex: No One Escapes Death" and to keep in line with my earlier post. Seriously, can we just call it NED?

    Secondly, this post will be pretty lengthy (as you should expect from me by now). If you're here to say "NOED is OP" or "Just do bones" Save it, please. That isn't what this thread is about and I'll know if you didn't even bother to read it from that alone.

    Thirdly, there will be a TL;DR at the bottom to summarise everything I say. If you don't want to read everything, then that should suffice, but to understand my whole point I suggest reading all of it.

    So, as we all know, this perk is rather controversial. We have some people saying the perk is fine, and that survivors just need to cleasne totems (or as I've seen it more commonly mentioned, "do bones"). This seems to be the attitude of an awful lot of members of this forum. Others say that NED isn't fine, particularly if the killer camps/tunnels, and provides free kills when the killer didn't deserve them. For clarification, I stand on the latter side of the argument, but let's try and put all biases aside for now. This thread is to come up with a way to appease both sides; please refrain from commenting until you've read all of it (or at the least, the TL;DR).

    NED is a perk that a lot of people are complaining about, and has caused a massive split between survivors and killers. So I'll try and propose a suitable solution.

    What are my aims for this discussion? Well, I want to find a form of NED that satsfies both sides as best as I can (even though I'm aware that I can't please everyone no matter what I do, and that's just how the internet works). I want to find a fair, balanced perk, still worthy of being a hex and providing ample risk for suibtable reward.

    So what's the current issues with NED?

    Some people say the perk is unfair, since a killer can play awfully all game and still get kills. This is probably shown best in one of Otzdava's more recent streams (found here), where he camps survivors and still ends in a 4k most matches. It takes a swf team, where their entire gimmick is escaping the hook by themselves and rushing generators as fast as possible, for him to not get a 4k. Obviously this seems kinda absurd. But then again, Otz is one of the best killers playing the game right now, so it could just be that he outplayed all of the survivors. Regardless of your views, this was done mostly in part due to NED. Feel free to check out the stream (almost 2 hours of gameplay at red ranks).

    Therefore, the current issue is that NED provides a very high reward (able to turn the tides of the game into a 4k easily) despite the fact that people are able to play badly all game (by facecamping, not pressuring generators, etc).

    Some will say that NED is needed because of adrenaline, and they cancel each other out, but really? For a start, adrenaline needs the survivors to play relatively smart to get all 5 gens completed, whilst NED activates regardless. Plus, would you rather have several busted things in a game, or none? I'd rather both just be nerfed at this point.

    Additionally, people say that NED activating is completely the fault of the survivors. This is partially true; if it's a 3 or 4 man swf squad on comms rushing gens and not doing totems, then yeah it's all their fault and they deserve it. But like I've mentioned in several previous threads, it's more often that not teams of solo survivors that get ruined by NED, having cleansed 3-4 obvious totems leaving that one obscure totem still standing and waiting. Furthermore, a lack of totem counter requires solo players to guess at how many totems are left, or limits their build space using perks such as Small Game or Detective's Hunch, or a map with an add-on. Not only does this do the opposite of what the developers want to do- encourage build variety- but it also forces solo players to spend time searching and cleansing instead of repairing generators. This is stress that solo survivor- the hell that it is- doesn't need.

    So how can we change this to make it appealing to both sides?

    Well, one way to do this is to leave NED as it is. Instead, add in some extra information to solo survivor, one of which being a totem counter. This will enable solos to stay on top of totems, whilst not buffing swf in any meaningful way. Whilst it won't be a perfect equaliser, it will allow people to do generators after knowing for sure all 5 totems have been cleansed, or search for the final one before the fateful NED strikes.

    However, some people have expressed distaste in this idea (I don't know why, it's one of the best ways to ensure this game can become as balanced as possible), so I'll throw some more ideas out there.

    The first idea is to remove NED from being a hex perk and place it on a timer. This places importance on immersion- if the killer can't find someone in that time limit then the killer doesn't get the reward of the perk, whereas if they do find someone then they have a good chance of reaping the benefits and snowballing easily. This was the form of the perk, back in the day (read in an old man's voice, obviously), in version 1.0.5 (so very early on). This was active for a flat 120 seconds. I suggest making the speed boost flat across all tiers (3% so as to not be too obnoxiously strong but not too small it isn't noticable), and have the timer scale. It could be similar to Haunted Grounds (40/50/60 seconds), but I believe this is too small a time window to get any meaningful value. Therefore, I'd suggest something a whole lot closer to 80/90/100 seconds. Not too annoying that it's 2 minutes long (twice the time of an EW3 Myers and 2.67 times longer than a ghostface exposed), but also not too oppresive that nothing can get done within 2 minutes.

    Another idea that could come to pass is removing the speed boost from NED and keeping the instant down effect, although this has large issues with scalability, so instead removing the instant down and buffing the movement speed could also be a viable solution. The movement speed would have to be buffed, obviously, perhaps to something like 8/9/10%. That's 2 stacks of Play WIth Your Food at tier 3, for reference. This could be very strong, and cuts down on loop times quite a bit whilst increasing pressure due to a large boost to movement speed, but also not as annoying as instantly downing a survivor whilst also moving faster. Though, this is 125% speed (or 5m/s, 5% slower than The Legion using their power), so perhaps neither of these are the best.

    An idea I've heard a couple times is to make NED a token-based perk, similar to Devour Hope. For every survivor you hook, gain a token. Once the exit gates are powered, NED will activate. Each token provides a small boost to speed (say, 0.5%) and each hit consumes 2 tokens to enable the insta-down. This seems like the second best option (next to giving solos a totem counter), as it retains the strength of current NED whilst removing a lot of the animosity. If the killer can stack up to 8 tokens with all four survivors alive, meaning they played pretty fair and allowed everyone to have fun, then the perk wouldn't feel as cheap as it currently does (where you can just facecamp and still get a 4k, again Otzdava). I personally love this idea, and feel like it could be a welcome change that both sides would like. To scale it, it could be similar to Save The Best For Last, where it consumes 4/3/2 tokens on the hit to perform an instant down. This gives benefit to tier one (if youre on 7 stacks then you get an insant down and then keep 1.5% bonus speed for the rest of the endgame), and also to tier 3 because it allows you to instantly down a survivor several more times.

    One final method I've seen to rework NED whilst keeping the insta-down is to change NED to only become active when the Endgame Collapse is triggered instead. This just seems like a flat-out nerf, and isn't something I'm particularly fond of.

    A final way to completely rework NED whilst not having it instantly down a surivor is to remove that condition entirely (obviously), and instead have NED activate when it comes to the unlocking of the exit gates. Whilst slowing the unlocking wouldn't be preferred since we already have Remember Me, I feel like something similar to Hex:Ruin would be pretty creative and new. Furthermore, it'd remove the issue some people have with 99% exit gates. My proposal:

    NED activates when all generators have been completed. When not unlocking an exit gate, they will regress at 1/2/3 charges per second (depending on how you want written it could also be 100/200/300%). Not the best, but it's new and it could work.

    Overall, NED is a badly designed perk (in my opinion) which I believe needs a change. Above I've highlighted the ways I'd do it, but if you have a different way of changing the perk (remember, we're trying to be consctructive, keep the perk in a relatively strong state whilst removing many gripes about the perk, and ensure it isn't seen as a cheap win). Please do let me know, just keep it civil.

    TL;DR for those who wanted it.

    NED is a pretty weird perk. I don't like it, but here we are. Here are my suggestions to fix it and make it healthy for both sides:

    -Add a totem counter (good)

    -Buff speed boost but remove insta down (bad)

    -Stop it being a hex and just make it on a timer like in 1.0.5 (meh)

    -Buff perk in a different way but remove speed boost (bad)

    -Have it affect gates by regressing them when not being unlocked. (meh)

    -Have it trigger during EGC (bad)

    -Have it as a totem based system like devour hope. (good)

    Everything I wrote about here still stands because the survivor experience since then, particularly solo, has only gotten worse.

  • Bullettimegod Bullettimegod


    @GoodBoyKaru said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1830656#Comment_1830656

    There can be good people that use the perk. If a killer has a perfect 32k score then they had to have, at least, 3 hooked 3 people. ZubatLEL has also used the perk before iirc, and he's a great killer.

    I never said everyone who uses the perk is #########, I said ######### players use the perk. Inductive conclusion that's probable, not a deductive one that's definite.

    or was it the surv fault for not doing bones?

    This, though. I have a problem with this. I have a substantial problem with this.

    In a SWF I can coordinate how many totems have been cleansed. I can say where those totems were, when I did them, etc etc. In solo, I can't do that. I don't know how many of them are left, where they've been cleansed and when. When I've done three generators and four totems, then I'm the one that gets punished by going down to NOED in the endgame because my solo teammates couldn't do one singular totem, is it my fault for just being bad? Is it my fault that, in a team game with random players who throw shack pallet without a stun at 5 gens and go down 30 seconds later, who cannot hit skillchecks and urban evade at the corner of the map at red ranks, they couldn't do a single totem between them?

    Just do bones is flawed. Just do bones is so incredibly flawed. It's like saying "just don't go down" when talking about old moris; oh I'd love to but my teammates used every possible resource known to mankind and ruined the economy.

    "Oh, then use a totem perk!"

    What a great idea! Let me slot it into my build alongside Iron Will, Off The Record, Spine Chill (because that's how you counter Stridor Spirit according to these forums), Windows Of Opportunity, Kindred, Bond (knowing what my teamamtes are doing), Decisive Strike, Borrowed Time (to help my team vs campers + tunnelers, and to help me vs a camper and tunneler), Resilience (alongside Spine Chill to help with the atrocious "hit validation" that's done nothing but make the survivor experience worse), and-

    Oh, oh wait. that's 10 perks.

    Last I checked there were only 4 slots available.

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/608049785450004520/790619073477083146/magik.png

    Just need to get better, I guess.

    NOED is atrocious in solo and managable in a SWF- you know, when NOED is actually needed to have.

    If you want my full thoughts on the perk, here's a thread I made about it a while back:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/147264/hex-no-one-escapes-death

    Everything I wrote about here still stands because the survivor experience since then, particularly solo, has only gotten worse.

    Thats a lot of perks. Also valid. Personally i just stick to a simple rule of bones> gens. Since most bones are found near a gen or hook, usually when looking for a gen or going for unhook i make a mental note of where that said bone is to come back to it once heat dies down. This is excluding lerys and midwich cause ugh. Im sure youve been told this.


    Side note: off the record? Youre the first i saw mention that.

  • GoodBoyKaru GoodBoyKaru

    @Bullettimegod said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1830683#Comment_1830683

    Thats a lot of perks. Also valid. Personally i just stick to a simple rule of bones> gens. Since most bones are found near a gen or hook, usually when looking for a gen or going for unhook i make a mental note of where that said bone is to come back to it once heat dies down. This is excluding lerys and midwich cause ugh. Im sure youve been told this.

    Side note: off the record? Youre the first i saw mention that.

    Off the Record-> reduces grunts of pain by 100%

    Iron Will-> reduces grunts of pain by 100%

    Therefore it's 200% reduces sounds of pain.

    Stridor increases it by 50%, so with Iron Will it's only 50% sound you make. WIth both of them, your sounds of pain are reduced by 150%, and Stridor does nothing for 80 seconds after you've been unhooked. Obviously it also works with No Mither but, that's No Mither.

    A combination of those 3 perks is the only way to counter Stridor completely.

  • Bullettimegod Bullettimegod

    @GoodBoyKaru said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1830701#Comment_1830701

    Off the Record-> reduces grunts of pain by 100%

    Iron Will-> reduces grunts of pain by 100%

    Therefore it's 200% reduces sounds of pain.

    Stridor increases it by 50%, so with Iron Will it's only 50% sound you make. WIth both of them, your sounds of pain are reduced by 150%, and Stridor does nothing for 80 seconds after you've been unhooked. Obviously it also works with No Mither but, that's No Mither.

    A combination of those 3 perks is the only way to counter Stridor completely.

    Good to know. And here i am just thinking in clever for being able to time pallets to slamming on a phasewalking spirit. :(

  • GoodBoyKaru GoodBoyKaru

    @Bullettimegod said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1830706#Comment_1830706

    Good to know. And here i am just thinking in clever for being able to time pallets to slamming on a phasewalking spirit. :(

    No that's pretty cool to do, it's just if you want to counter Stridor Spirit that's what you have to do, according to the forums anyway. Every time someone complains about something to do with solo (and how atrocious it is), these are perks I've seen mentioned in the comments. Shame there's only 4 slots though, lmao.

  • SocialDistomancy SocialDistomancy

    @Farshad7913 said:

    title

    noed will never be meta as long as you spend some time sittin alone diggin up bones. same reason undying isn't a problem. stop trying to rush gens or spending half the game hiding doing nothing and start looking for bones and undying won't become a problem and noed will be a waste of a perk slot and never become 'meta'. the devs keep holding survivors' hands and eventually they're gonna need to geta round to pushing out bot killers with decent AI or else the game is done for. start at least making a basic effort to git gud, not saying that you personally, it's to anybody reading this that feels entitled to everything they dislike being nerfed constantly.

  • CashelP14 CashelP14

    This is just completely incorrect.

    The people who ran NOED before still run it now. The number of NOED users hasn't decreased since the Undying/Ruin meta came in.

  • Bullettimegod Bullettimegod

    @GoodBoyKaru said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1830711#Comment_1830711

    No that's pretty cool to do, it's just if you want to counter Stridor Spirit that's what you have to do, according to the forums anyway. Every time someone complains about something to do with solo (and how atrocious it is), these are perks I've seen mentioned in the comments. Shame there's only 4 slots though, lmao.

    Eh with stridor spirit i basically just try to buy my team as much time as i can when im being chased. It could be 15 secs could be 3 minutes. But i also dont play solo most times. (Mostly because lfg posts and etc)

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