HoS
HoS
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LMAAAAOOOO yeah, ok, so with each day, we realize she's even more braindead. What on Earth is that?
She's got everything and now autoaimed projectiles.
But she's somewhat a "worse Plague" or B-tier. Sure. -
Didn't read the whole thread but I personally don't agree with slaughtering strike having no transition animation. Myers was known to be very uninteractive because he could stalk everyone and instantly down you without any way to tell he had 99'ed tier 3. I'd rather see him buffed elsewhere than removing this, personally.
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Yeah, I had one game against that and I used a map. I felt permanently unable to use it but atp she's so strong that even if I find a loop, I'll die. It's indeed mostly awful to unhook your teammates. I don't like the addon either.
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I can't believe people defend her. She's just miserable to go against.
She's the only killer that has almost no slowdown at any point between her different abilities. The only exception is head to human form and thank god she has that. Headflight is basically infinite, in head form she's 120% with a huge FoV and a dash. There's no slowdown when she regurgitates and M1's. DS is completely pointless against her if she decides to tunnel.
At this point it doesn't even make sense that she's not 110 % in any forms. How in the world can you have antiloop, insane mobility, insane pressure with mushrooms that take like almost a minute to get the full effect or they will permanently break you, be faster than any killer at the same time and have better FoV than survivors? I'd understand 120% if she didn't have headflight, but it's not the case. Like there are too many good things in her power.
Meanwhile Hag is rotting at 110% for some reason. -
Guys, can we simply just agree that 25% is definitely not "nothing" but it's also not gamebreaking, it's very strong but I'd like to see on the long term how this actually plays in a 3v1 at one gen left, two gens and three gens left. Beyond that is unwinnable.
42s for a duo does seem very fast though. -
@Wolf65 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3995099#Comment_3995099
But why is that a killer issue? That's why there are FOUR survivor. If someone gets tunneled, go and interfer. Try to get the killers attention away from the other guy. If you already got hooked and all other not, play stealthy. If your not hooked once and all the other are -maybe multiple times- maybe it's your tunr to distract the killer. Why not create ingame mechanics to encourage that?
I had games where I only saw the same survivor. He died on the 3rd hook, before I ever met another survivor. What's the plan for that scenario?
I agree, you could go and interfere but maybe your teammate has DS and can buy you time on gens? Maybe they don't? If they are being chased by a stealth killer or a big map, you don't necessarily know where they are. If they are a good looper, you might break their momentum in chase while being off gens so you're just screwing your teammate up. That's the big dilemma every time. Will they have DS or DH and buy us time so we should stay on gens? or should we actively help and take hits/use syringe in chase (if the survivor actually knows what you're trying to do with that syringe)? It's a gamble because BHVR refuse to give survivors any tools to know what our teammates are thinking or bringing into the match. Some expect a team of survivors to play like a team (makes sense) without the tools of a team (doesn't make sense). What other game has team gameplay with close to zero information about your teammates' whereabouts/loadouts/intentions? The only thing survs have is a hud. It's consequential, don't get me wrong but we're faaaaar from optimal team plays. And because of this problem, it creates the problem of SWF being overpowered sometimes because if we nerf SWFs, it usually (NOT ALWAYS) means nerf solo queue, duos and trios. We're not solving a core issue here.
Solo Queue is too weak and inconsistent (it has its thrills, I personally kinda like that) but SWF is too strong (better benefits but less tension and adaptation in game). Nerfing SWFs, for the most part, involves nerfing Solo Queue. The opposite is also true. So what do we do?
Also, tbf, even when you take hits in solo queue, a killer who wants to tunnel WILL tunnel and you're just stalling but the killer might take you down, chase the tunneled survivor and eventually get them before the one gets back up so it's a kill and another survivor on hook and good luck making any progress as survivor.
That's half of the issue with tunneling: it leads to this extremely killer-sided scenario and, as I said, it's normal they get favored but we all know that 3v1 at 3 or even 2 gens is a loss for survivors. You just keep farming BP on gens and chase but you know the outcome, you will lose. And it creates another problem: since survivors are aware of that, they know they won't win, they might start ratting around, hiding, not doing objectives in hopes of getting the hatch. Now you could find other solutions for that but you see my point. Tunneling and the swf/solo gap are all interconnected and bear a core dynamic on the gameplay and they have all led to massive frustrations since the game came out. SWF is too strong when optimal, solo queue is too inconsistent and frustrating, tunneling creates one-sided scenarios and is hard to prevent depending on the survivor group and has been meta since forever and gens go too fast sometimes. All of these are connected and other factors need to be considered (toolboxes, killer powers being outdated or busted, etc.).
DBD is an incredibly complex game with very intricate features.
I am all for no anti tunneling measures like we're supposed to get if we significantly reduce the gap between solo and swf and then adjust gameplay/perks accordingly. Alas, that's not what we're getting. BHVR have different priorities. You're right to complain about that but some people here (not you specifically) are incredibly biased for one side and it's like arguing with angry teenagers.
Some killer players seem to want to tunnel non stop and never think out of the box or come up with different strats, about a game that could have insane incentives to not tunnel (like the absurd ideas I mentioned earlier) and become the optimal way to play and don't seem to grasp that playing solo doesn't mean you're not playing against human players. Also some think tunneling is inherently the best strat because 3v1 is "common sense", "simple maths" but no, look at Singularity with pre-nerf Knock Out. Use the blind while slipstreamed addons with knock out, surge, sloppy and any other perk you deem useful and it was an incredibly powerful and obnoxious strategies because of how Larry's power worked. Some killers are incredibly at some tactics. SM was busted at negating areas and gens, she didn't need to tunnel. Pinhead can inflict deep wound with an addon which completely bypasses Off the Record so tunneling is super easy if there's no DS. Tunneling was the easiest and most universal strat but it's not an absolute. The game has more to offer and CAN offer more.
You can't have a 4k consistently, no one should in an ideal setting, this is not PvE where you can cheese mechanics to win consistently. Play other video games (try fighting games for example) and tell me if it's fair that some characters/sides get to win super consistently through some strats.
Some survivor players seem to want any killer that get easy injuries (Legion/Ghoul), or faster mobility than 4.6m/s or overused gen regression perks to get nerfed and nuked while having all the basekit benefits. -
@Wolf65 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3994214#Comment_3994214
It is an asymetrical PvP game. The best strategy to win solo vs a team is to eleminate 1 player as fast as possible. That's simple math and common sense. (Go to any self defense class and they will tell you the same in RL.)
In a 1vs 4 game only the single player is entitled to play the whole game start to finish.
Yeah, it does make sense to get rid of someone. It doesn't have to happen at four ######### hooks. And no, it's not simple maths. If all gens went back to zero every time you hooked at different survivor, the game would clearly be in favor of not tunneling at all because it'd be so obviously overpowered. So no. In this case, it is a simple maths. A simple change to one number and that's it.
As for the 1v4 entitlement, again, I don't disagree. The problem is when it happens very early and it leads to two problems that I will have to repeat: one survivor is out after barely getting to played (i'm mainly blaming hard tunneling) and the team is incredibly unfavored once a teammate is dead. At 2 gens left, it's 99% chance killer wins in a 3v1. This is super one sided. The killer should have the upper hand but it shouldn't be this drastic. -
I think some of you are completely stuck in what DBD has always been and are simply incapable of imagining the game being different with completely different strategies. Some of you lowkey sound like you want to tunnel until the game dies like it's engraved no matter what in your strategy. No one EVER is accounting for how ######### boring it is for survivors AND killer.
It's a video game, no one wants to be in a ######### lobby waiting to fing matches because haha, killers tunneled the ######### out of me, I needed my teammates to help me (cause they are my teammates ya know) and they couldn't find me, and they didn't know what perks I had or they didn't bring helpful perks in case of tunneling bc there are so many perks and some players refuse to give survivors the actual tools to see and help each other. So what do we do?
Also, games with hard tunneling tend to favor killers much more. It's not only about the person who died and is out of the game. If we find something as efficient as tunneling like it is right now, same efficiency, it will be insufferable for survivors. Tunneling is the base strategy for competitive play. It's incredibly strong, BUT I'd like to see how it would go if we actually found something as strong. I'm one who would also not mind basekit super killer sided changes to see if it helps the game find a healthier thing if it means survivors struggle for a while. You guys want to play the same perks and strats non stop or what?
Like they could have given 60% base regression and 40 seconds of haste, you guys would still say it's a nerf for killer. Why are you all SO scared of having core changes? This will not resolve and find proper balance in one PTB. Same ######### with anti slugging and so many perks, they needed to be tweaked through the course of the game's lifespan. There will always be problems. But atp, I'd rather have balance issues around gen regression than being eliminated from the game by a killer who tunneled me.
You won't change my mind, I don't care, that strat has been n°1 complaint for survivors since the game came out which is almost a decade. It needs clear addressing. -
@YukariTheAlpaca said:
I love that the idea of trying to win as killer using efficient strategies is considered toxic in this game. You guys realize it is a PVP game, right? The goal is to win? That is like saying that survivors doing generators too fast is toxic; which it isn't.
The goal of a PVP game is to win, guys. How you do it, as long as you are not using cheats, should be up to you as the player. The reason killers camp is the same reason survivors split off onto different generators as quickly as possible: Pressure the enemy team.
Again, you said it, it's a PvP game. Tunneling revolves around eliminating someone out of the game (5 players ⇒ 4 players). It's incredibly unfun for the player who's out and it leads to 3v1 scenarios that are incredibly more one-sided. The dynamic is drastically different. It's super hard for survivors to win once one teammate is out too early. It's not fun in a group of players to have to spectate others. Yes, teams can take hits but like… competitively tunneling was very good so let's not expect pubs to counter tunneling efficiently because it's very strong and some killers are very good at it. And also… who likes to be sent back to the lobby three minutes after getting a match?
Don't you think it would be healthier to have buffed gen regression and killer chase power but everyone gets to stay in the game
a bit longer? We saw with the stats tracker that players spend like 30% or 40% of their play time in the lobby. Who enjoys that?
Efficient strategies for killers shouldn't revolve around tunneling, it's not fun for anyone. It could be other things that don't need to get rid of a player. You're playing against other actual people, everyone wants to play the game. -
They buffed basekit regression by a 4 time basekit Pop Goes the Weasel. Can we account for that a little bit instead of doom posting?
Tunneling needs to go. I'm fine buffing regression a bit more but there are too many changes to be calling stuff wild except maybe that Eruption nerf that does make the perk useless a bit ON PAPER. -
Girl the PTB was not even out LMAO
I mean it does make the perk a bit useless but BBQ now makes basekit kick 10% regression which is a nice change imo. You get Eruption's effect instantly now instead. Eruption could have been reworked or untouched but I understand if they want to be extra cautious with regression now that you can Pop for free four times per game.
There is soooo many things to try, it's very exciting. Perks are all so different and basekit stuff adds a lot of fresh air to the game. The change of meta might be the biggest since 6.1.0 (I think?) with the 40 perks overhauled. -
The other post and now this one, bait is not fun, please stop.
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90 seconds to finish 4 or 5 gens? Did you proof read yourself?
One gen is 90 seconds, there's three survivors at best on three different gens so unless you're chasing someone for 90 seconds (you shouldn't) without ever stumbling upon a gen being repaired, that would be three gens.
And usually people are grouping up, or healing, or on hook, or taking hits or… doing something else.
Last Stand earned through being in a terror radius is ass, because it's so free on regular killer and inconsistent against stealth. And it's free in both cases. It's really not a fun and/or fair condition. -
I'm fine with bodyblocking except when the survivor is right in front of a window, perfectly centered and if it's a window with space on both sides, he can uncloak next to you and you can't vault sometimes and it's very awkward. That's my only complaint with him. It doesn't look or feel natural to not vault bc he's next to you and not on the window's way
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I don't know if it's genius but there's always been that very boring dynamic when a survivor is out too early because the game becomes 99% unwinnable for survs.
3v1 at 3 gens left is just unwinnable and while it's normal killers get the upper hand, it shouldn't be that one-sided because it turns the trial into blood point farming but we all know how it's going to end. It's not fun for any side.
Unless you have a 100% speed bonus, 3v1 is still incredibly in killer's favor. At one gen left, it may be doable but at two or three gens left? If the killer overcommits to a chase and gets too confident, they might lose but otherwise it's GG WP.
That change is not bad, but it could reward survivors when they don't need to be. -
I hate that you're being downvoted for this.
Releasing a dev update without concrete values is driving so many people crazy right now and it's utterly pointless.
It's nice to have early updates but like… We can't even play so what do we do? We cry on forums and Twitter?
In the meantime we just imagine scenarios or whatever. Completely useless. -
@CompetitifDBD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991884#Comment_3991884
Hey I'm all for VC's for survivors, thats the best, most reliable source of communication for all players. But these anti tunnel changes can't go live.
I live in Asia, the language barrier is immense here. VC would be pointless bc people are so shy AND don't speak a common language. We need proper emotes/premade sentences and aura reading. Kindred should be basekit, or at least show survivors but not the killer.
The anti tunneling changes are fine and we'll finally be able to move onto something new. The only problem is the no gen kicking if someone dies that could be too punishing and the gen speed compensation if someone gets tunneled because it's not tied to gen progression. These are two things that are rightfully controversial. But elusiveness and basekit killer info? It's a step into the right direction.
Do you guys want the game to feel fresh? Everyone is sick of HAVING to bring gen regression or anti tunnel. We complain about the lack of variety of builds but if we don't address the perks AND/OR the core gameplay, it will be the same forever. DS/OtR exists simply because of tunneling and it doesn't happen every game.
I play killer as well, I'd like to not need to resort to tunneling when things don't go as well as I thought. It would be nice if gen regression or even hexes had more power. -
This is a terrible idea. Legion isn't that strong, they are just boring.
As soon as someone gets deep wound, everyone knows what the killer is doing so they all jump in a locker. It completely nerfs him without any compensation. That's not what the problem is with Legion. -
@CompetitifDBD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991686#Comment_3991686
The punishments for tunneling are far worse, trust me. In no world should killers lose the ability to defend generators because survivors aren't good enough to work together as a team.
Ok, fine, then give survivors the necessary tools to communicate properly.
I'm sick of so many things said here. We don't know the values and we haven't seen the update yet and you are losing your mind because there's like two deincentivizing mechanics that are surely a bit too much and oh the game is dead. You can just argue and have some doubts about it before overreacting because tbf, the basekit bbq/mini-pop/haste in exchange of delayed unhooking notification and elusive status effect are in NO WORLD a problem. Do you guys want the game to have tunneling forever? The game is almost ten years old.
But then you complain that survivors make mistakes and get handheld, well yeah because YOU CANNOT TALK TO YOUR TEAMMATES. A lot of times, you lose because you couldn't work efficiently as a team but how are you supposed to know what everyone has in mind with a HUD saying gens/heal/totems and two in game emotes that are used for trolling around anyway. That's the big problem with survivors. They rely on other actual people and if they don't play according to how you want them to, you are in disadvantageous position. If one heals instead of doing gens, if they don't split up on gens, if two people go for the unhook, etc.
But when survs ask for basekit kindred it's suddenly too much and killers should get compensation. Maybe they should but let's see how it goes first. We can't have too many changes at a time and 9.2.0 is already VERY packed.
How long are we going to need to debate about the solo queue vs swf (you have to consider the size and efficiency) vs killer?
It's irritating. Once we find a good solution against tunneling, killers will be buffed and perks will be buffed. It's not in anyone's interest to lose players. And tunneling has never been fun whatsoever. -
It depends on the changes.
Some killers, as weak as they may be, can't just be buffed with no mitigation. If Clown got his immediate speed like in PTB at 12% haste with the same hinder as before, you'd get a killer with average map mobility and chases that last 15 seconds because the speed differential would be absolutely insane. This is just not fun and interactive. We can't compensate the lack of map mobility with ridiculous anti loop and vice versa.
The changes to Clown, on paper, made sense. Use more haste and a bit less hinder than usual because hinder was the only tool players used in chase and players didn't use the full kit entirely. The problem is they went overboard with the yellow bottles that give instant better speed now.
I get the idea for Knight as well but the execution is terrible but that kinda comes with the design of the killer. How do you give "smart" anti loop to a killer that can ######### a guard at a loop and will track you for 30 seconds while the killer can just sandwich you.
Changes to Pig are fine but for example, we can't make crouching speed too fast. It's as fast as survivor now which means that it's impossible to lose her if she chases you with a bear trap on because it doesn't trigger chase.
Any changes to base power needs to be balanced with the rest or it creates absolute frustration: Old SM had no real chase power, no mobility but her ability to defend areas was beyond insane. Old Houndmaster could get hit instantly at any pallet or window because Snug vaulted way too fast. -
I wouldn't say Houndmaster has "no inspiration" in her design. I think she's very cool. Her cosmetics are ok imo, she just almost has none lol.
The search command is so unbelievably dumb. We could just have a toggle for "search a gen location" specifically so we don't have to nod the head up and down or "search freely". Why are they combined, it's so awkward. -
The music.
DBD has very thematic music, with so many terror radius, the idea of a song building up to when you're spotted and in great danger is amazing. It's a shame so many tracks were retired and some require very specific conditions to hear. -
You know guys, you don't have to downvote every killer nerf even if you play killer and downvote every survivor nerf when you are a survivor.
DMS is very strong at the moment. It works with PainRes and 50 seconds are indeed extremely long. Some killers are very oppressive with it and although it has some counter by just touching a random gen, in solo queue, you never know if anyone is aware and is gonna do that.
It either needs to be a bit shorter or stops triggering with PainRes because in any case, killers with projectiles or mobility will get to that gen before you get the gen done more often than not.
And if we remove painres interaction, we can extend the perk to 60s but from the moment the person is hooked. It's a bit dumb that the perk is active for 50 seconds even when the person got hooked 30 seconds earlier imo. -
Voted it up.
I also gave suggestions the other day for just QoL stuff and not balance like having a toggle to search for gens or parts of the map cause that back and forth up and down camera movement to get SNug where you want him to go is awkward and sometimes flops and it's SO annoying.
Add BP score to instances when Snug injures a survivor vaulting and add a timeout for Snug when he gets stuck like a movement detection stuff that just makes him teleport back immediately.
I like some of your addons but the double redirect is a bit too strong or useless because Snug goes so far.
The auto pallet break should be an iridescent if anything. It's very powerful. That makes her power almost uncounterable at pallets. -
I agree that his addon direction is better than what most killers got. However, there's still some that increases x value of the power by a very small percentage and those addons will always super boring to me.
People use Wraith as the best character for his addons but he has two addons to appear faster and disappear faster and breaking/vaulting. Why have two? And why just percentage tweaks? Those are really not that interesting imo. -
To me, an easy fix is just to let one survivor recover fully depending on the amount of survivors in the dying state.
If 3 out of 4 survivors are on the floor, then the first one downed should be able to recover fully (not instantly ofc). The killer already gets so much pressure with two people down.
And then 2 out 3 survivors, one can get up to avoid slugging for the 4k and have a bit more balance in 3v1 scenarios when there's one or two gens left.
And in 2v1, I don't know how I feel. On one hand, not being able to slug makes slugging for the 4k less boring but also, good luck getting a 4k or an adept as killer if this was ever implemented.
So to make everyone happy, I would at least do that for 4v1. Sounds fair and counters heavy slugging.
Recovering by yourself completely without help makes dying under pallets uncounterable if someone is around so it's a terrible idea and we already saw that. -
It's funny to see that now but literally no one uses Babysitter, the old haste buff that they removed a few weeks after had barely done anything to the perk's popularity. Because it wasn't that strong. 30s of haste is massive on paper but 30 seconds fly extremely quickly and wouldn't do much against high mobility/range killers.
Also no, we don't ban people because they tunnel, come on now, let's not be extreme. -
If I'm honest, one way to help mitigate this a little bit, in my opinion, is to start tweaking base stats a bit more.
I know BHVR is very scared of having way too much variety for killers' kits, and rightfully because we have over 40 killers with more and more complex powers but I really think we should start "customizing" fundamental interaction time.
What I mean is that weaker killers because of no mobility or no antiloop should naturally have a faster pallet break animation, maybe a faster vault, or dare I say maybe we should break the 115% base speed limit to 120%?
While at the same time, Blight should be 110%, Kaneki might as well be or at least those killers should have to gamble more whether they should break a pallet or not. Removing tokens from Kaneki was already a good step in that direction. While Trapper could just be faster on those as a compensation for no mobility or active anti loop.
We already fiddle with killers' base speed, terror radius size, walking noises (some killers are not as strong with oblivious/undetectable build), some killers can vault pallets or windows faster as a feature built-in their power.
I know it comes with its amount of problems but I don't know how we can lower the gap between high and low tiers if we don't fundamentally alter how the game works. Nerfing Nurse and Blight harshly sounds more reasonable than gigabuffing Trapper especially since he's a free killer, probably played a lot by beginners so if he's dumb at lower levels of play, I don't know if beginner survivors will want to keep playing the game. But if I'm BHVR's advocate, stats wise, his killrate is not 80% lower than that of Kaneki or Blight. So… is he THAT much weaker, all trials considered?
Now again, it's just an idea and AGAIN, no, it doesn't mean survivors wouldn't need some adjustments -
"this has no downside" it absolutely does.
No one wants to play against a coordinated team bc of how oppressive they might be.
It will also be another incentive to tunnel someone out because of that and it's just unhealthy.
And for people who want two queues, fine, then give anti tunnel and all that ######### basekit because you can be sure your teammates are gonna struggle and/or unwilling to take hits for the tunneled survivor.
This idea is unserious, come on now. -
It's honestly funny because when I play killer, I also very easily have two gens pop in my face right after the first chase. But as survivor, even though I really try hard on my gen, the first gen pops after the third hook.
Am I cursed or what?
Now let's not jump the gun, killers never have the upper hand at the start of the trial, unless they use specific iri addons like Pig and Wesker at the beginning of the match. It's quite normal to lose gens faster at the beginning as the fewer gens, the more pressure and momentum you can build but it does feel INSANELY FAST as killer but if you play as survivor, that's definitely not what happens every match. -
I had the same problem as Houndmaster yesterday and it happened after a survivor got a flashlight save on me with Champion of Light. I was super slow and it was very jittery too. It did go away eventually and I think it was tied to hooking as well. Might be a Houndmaster thing.
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This map is one of the most balanced, imo. Main building is strong but as soon as walls are destroyed, it's more bearable for killers. The houses loop are confusing but it makes them fun. It has a long alley with clear line of sight so it has some risky areas for gens and safer ones. Only part that I don't really like is the desert, it feels empty (like a desert, duh, yeah I know) so it's not all too interesting. It has a breakable wall in the shack as well so it's quite unique in this regard. I think this map should remain untouched OR maybe could use some variations because it's one of the players' favorites!
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One of the very few maps that is killer-sided. Loops are not very interesting, the map is very small, the doors are extremely easy to patrol, and some rooms are literally empty and useless like the classroom. Why not add the double pallet setup we have now on Greenville?
The gen layout is also sometimes horrible and it's extremely difficult as survivor to project where all the gens are in order to avoid a possible three gens, unless you use déjà-vu.
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It's an absolutely terrible map for killers. There was a rework on it and I literally, LITERALLY, don't see a single difference. Main building still has god windows, the map is huge with jungle gyms and decent loops all around. It would be better if it was a tad bit smaller and/or something was done to the window in main building. Also, I feel like you guys have been forgetting about breakable walls with the recent maps. It's a feature that's being forgotten a lot on map design and it's a shame. It's an interesting mechanic.
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If it wasn't for the new anti-3-gen mechanic, I would have said this map is """balanced""" (now I'd say it's surv sided because of how big it is) because of how close the gens in the middle are. There can be one down the stairs of main building, one on top of it and on between the shack and the main building. It's painfully close and extremely hard to get rid of as survivors if you don't jump on one or two of those right from the beginning.
Before the anti-3-gen, a Plague player burned an offering for the map and would constantly patrol those three gens while using Surge and it was simply impossible to do anything in solo queue.
Now the problem is how hard tracking is on this map and also how boring main building is... it has one pallet, one super unsafe window and one good window. Not much to have fun with, honestly.