Ghoul Rework ideas

Skeleton23

I would want to say i want to see how you guys would Change the Killer to make him better because I think he doesn't need anymore nerfs because they won't do anything but ruin the killer like Skull Marchant was treated. I also think we need to push for a Rework that will make everyone happy. If people agree we should spread the Word

#ReworkGhoul

Gyges

No rework, if they wanna touch him again just nerf the scamper, shorten grab range and revert the sling range nerf.

Metagamer

@Gyges said:

No rework, if they wanna touch him again just nerf the scamper, shorten grab range and revert the sling range nerf.

I feel like this would just annihilate him entirely if all done at once

Shroompy

I dont think he needs a rework, I think he just needs a little bit more tuning. This is what I have in mind:

To grab onto a survivor you need to be within 7m of them, doing so will give a mark and injure only. To compensate, increase mark timer to 60 seconds. If he latches onto an already injured survivor, they get marked (or the marked timer resets) and they suffer from Deep Wounds. Also make it so his grab can count as a protection hit.

This way he'd no longer be an anti tank guided missile (well, we still would be but to a much more tolerable extent) and perks that require to simply be injured rather than Deep Wounded would also have a better chance to shine.

SoGo

@bnork said:

hello! I'm bnork! and id like to present a comprehensive update for the ghoul, addressing his pain points and highlighting his best features from someone who's put a lot of time pushing the characters skill ceiling, and also invested alot of time versing the killer as well! since the PTB ive experimented with using the speed and momentum of the leaps to cut-off survivors from resources, and using the non-lethal grapple to interrupt survivors prompts. Ive made a small name for myself on twitter and twitch, posting very flashy clips playing kaneki around tiles and after reviewing these changes with several ghoul players, and survivor players, i believe ive hit the nail on the head with exactly what survivor players dislike, and what killer players would like alot more. with these few changes i strongly believe we could make the best version of kaneki we've yet to see!

lets start with addressing the frustrations from the survivor perspective, beginning with the Enraged vault. the speed of the vault itself, combined with the hindered from the grapple, turns the action into what can be compared too "scampering" from Chucky, it can often feel like a lose-lose, and while there are advanced tips to avoid it, it can be a bit unintuitive. next is the ease and inevitability of the grab attack, feeling as though there is very little counter-play given the nature of the hit-scan attack, that can also be triggered at far ranges. next up is add-ons, namely Yamori's mask and Centipede feeling rather oppressive and uninteractive. and finally the inconsistent nature of the pallet break power drain, leading to the killer breaking the pallet, and quickly regaining all lost distance.

and as for the ghoul himself, the power can feel very finicky, and often times unresponsive, needing to back up far distances to grapple onto the environment, grab attacking a survivor you didn't intend to. and being unable to latch onto pieces of the environment that seem like you should be able too. additionally, feeling unrewarded, and therefore encouraged to not interact with the skill-full elements of the power, leading to taking the "path of least resistance" which often times leads to survivors players disliking the interactions, and brewing frustrations on BOTH sides.

all of these changes are intended to limit frustration, from both sides, reward correct plays, and enrich the experience of playing as, and against, the ghoul. lets begin with the survivor frustrations, as i believe they've made it quite clear they aren't having as much fun as they'd like.

• the Ghoul can no longer perform a vault action with the first leap

the reasoning for this change is to completely remove the "scamper" aspect of the Kagune leap, while maintaining its existence and effectiveness in chase, this change allows survivors more freedom to use resources they've made, and enables ghoul players to still utilize the the vault for unique plays around dropped pallets during the second and third leap. this change will hurt his chase lethality, but i feel its necessary to both inject intentional skill expression into the ghoul player, and alleviate the inevitability getting downed when dropping pallets infront of kaneki at all times.

• fixed "kidnap tech"

as simple as it sounds, the kidnap is a technique the ghoul can perform while in chase, in-between dashes, against a non-marked survivor standing a distance away from a pallet, kaneki can prevent a survivor from moving, during which he is completing an entire vault action. offering the survivor very little to no counter play this change feels more akin to a bug fix, as the interaction doesn't seem intentional. but its worth noting nonetheless.

• Completely reworked Yamori's mask
• Completely Reworked Red-headed Centipede

as said above, the current version of these add-ons encourage rather uninteresting play-styles, kaneki is an incredibly mobile killer, and as such, having near unlimited pinpoint accurate information, for every hook, is an absurdly strong add-on that simply cannot exist as it does now, likewise Centipede enables kaneki to completely deny multiple windows at once, leaving survivors with very few options, with very little input from the ghoul player himself, neither add-on has values that can be directly nerfed without making them very weak, so reworks are in order.

• Reduced the range a Grab attack can be triggered by 8 meters(was 14)

the grab attack is a hit scan, long range attack that offers very little in terms of counter play, having the ability to snipe at such a range, leaves survivors with very few options against this attack, and while the attack was designed to not be dodge-able, requiring the ghoul players to position more deliberately to gain the benefits from grab attacking, would be a good way to increase the skill required to use it.

• Reworked the token drain system to be a power disable rather then a forced cool down.

so, to explain in clearer terms, the token drain system in its current form is very well intentioned, but leaves a bit to be desired in implementation, the current version features a unique drain, if not enraged, you lose one power token, and if you are enraged, you lose two power tokens, making the penalty for a breaking a pallet 4 seconds regardless of your current mode, this however does not drain tokens when actively recharging, which solves a previous issue of granting the ghoul a power charge token, causing his recharge to ironically be faster, but has a side effect of bringing back dashing after the survivor as soon as a pallet was broken, giving the survivors very little opportunity to make distance. my proposed change is to re-utilize tricksters power disable feature after using main event, this would allow counter-play timings to be consistent, and simplify the system entirely. this also has a noticeable benefit of decreasing the oppressiveness of chase perks, such as brutal strength on kaneki. and can also be used as a consistent balancing nob in the future!

alright! so with all these changes combined, we'd have alleviated a lot of survivor frustration against the character. we've removed the "scamper" from his kit, made pallet breaks consistently give breathing room for survivors, made grab attacks require more finesse to achieve, and reworked two problematic add-ons! this will however, leave kaneki in a state where he's weaker then he should be, so its time to compensate him, while also enabling the play style ghoul players want to be rewarded for!

• Revert Kagune Leap range to 16 meters(was 14)

early into kaneki's entrance into the fog, his kagune leap range was nerfed, this however, made the killer feel clunky, unresponsive, and coincidentally, did nearly nothing to his map control. this change would both add some much needed smoothness to his kit, while also allowing kaneki to once again have the ability to precisely grapple to ideal locations to outplay survivors in chase!

• Increase the speed of the third Kagune leap by 30%(satchel base-kit)

so, for those that don't know, kaneki's third leap does NOT feature a slide, limiting its mobility, which is honestly quite nice! it puts a reasonable restriction on mobility, and makes it feel very accurate, going exactly where you aimed, but this does however, leave the third leap feeling rather clunky, and having little utility, so increasing the speed of the third leap, allows for very precise placements, enabling cut-offs in chase, and relieving some add-on reliance. current kaneki, relies alot on Fresh coffee against better survivors, so this change allows for more freedom in builds, and gives the third leap some nice utility!

• Reduce the minimum leap range distance by 2 meters(was 5, now 3)

another quality of life change, the minimum leap distance refers to how far you need to be from an obstacle to latch onto it,. 5 meters simply feels rather clunky, making the ghoul player have to walk quite far backwards to begin leaping, this change wouldn't effect counter-play, and would only enable the ghoul player have more expression in chase while feeling smoother to play!

• Reduced Kagune swipe fatigue time to 2 seconds (was 2.5)

okay, so this buff might seem a bit odd, a kagune swipe(in reference to the score event) is in reference to grappling directly onto a marked survivor, dragging yourself towards them, this doesn't harm the survivor in any notable way, but does have one utility in chase, it interrupts a survivor, denying them the ability to vault pallets or windows! this can be used in chase as a "skill-shot" to deny a vault action, granting the ghoul a down for a well placed use of Kagune leaps momentum, it is also worth noting, a Kagune swipe has a noticeably slower movement speed as well as a longer fatigue time, this change could grant some new technique to chases, granting higher depth, whilst maintaining its higher movement speed penalty, giving the survivor enough time to react.

i hope these changes reach the devs, and possibly some consultants, i honestly believe kaneki is one of the best killer designs in recent memory, held back by a few baseline changes that have been addressed above, i deeply appreciate anyone that took time to read! thank you! :D

I agree with how this guy would change him.

Funchal

The only way to actually fix this character is a complete rework, his power is simply broken in the way he was programmed. Pay attention to the tentacle when its aura is being revealed, it basically teleports to the final destination, there is no way to dodge something like that.

Hes power needs to be based on a precision shot similar to the Slinger, the tentacle needs to travel first and then decide what will happen (whether it sticks to a structure, hits a survivor or simply miss). The way it is currently, where you just click to jump or get a hit is stupid and unfixable.