The Undying Nerf

GrimReaperJr1232

Welp, we all saw this one coming. Everyone and their mother knew it would be nerfed, and everyone foresaw the backlash coming.

"survivor sided!"

"RIP Undying"

So-on, so-on. Let's make a few things clear.

Did Rundying deserve to be nerfed?

Yes. Yes, it did.

Yeah, you can give the "it only rewards you for applying pressure" reasoning which is true, but you're missing the point. With Tinkerer especially, killers like Blight, Spirit (with add-ons), Billy (all 4 of them left), can make gens impossible to get done because they can just zoom.

This was an ungodly strong combo on most killers. Even chase-oriented killers can benefit because they can easily force survivors off gens, letting them regress at an astounding rate with the only solution being to "do bones," meaning revealing your location to the killer if they're paying attention.

But hey, it's not like the top/high tier killers are that chase-oriented, right? Just a few like Oni, a really good Pyramid Head, Spirit, and the godforsaken Nurse! It's already nearly impossible to beat the last two if the killer is good with them, Rundying was just salt in the wound.

Why not DS-Unbreakable?

Yeah, the fact this combo hasn't been addressed yet is absurd but by now, the devs know, and if they don't, then they're clearly not listening. Either way, complaining about it won't do anything.

Undying is useless now!

Um... no? It guarantees that your hex will last longer, meaning the survivors need to cleanse 2 totems before it's gone. That's pretty big. It's definitely weaker but by no means worthless or even "bad" now.

Typical survivor main!

If that's your counter to anything, then go. Just go. That's not an argument. That's a, "you're X so what you said is invalid!" which is basically a child throwing a tantrum. If you're able to read, then you're old/wise enough to be better.

Seraphor

I think Undying is perfectly balanced as it is now.

It's one extra perk slot, for one extra totem. That's a fair cost, and as a bonus, you can see people cleansing dull totems, so there's a minor detection perk still in there.

Is it as good as it used to be? Not even close. But that's a whole different issue about gen speeds and why Ruin-Undying was meta in the first place. That's the issue that needs to be addressed, not making Hex: Undying more powerful.

CLAUDETTEINABUSH

@Zarathos said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2006484#Comment_2006484

Defense of totems is one of the first mistakes you can make as a killer. If you focus to much on defending your totem you will lose the game and any survivor will know that simply ignoring the totem and pushing distant gens will often crush killers who focus to much on protecting there totems. Multi tasking is easy to say when you have high mobility killers but what of the low mobility killers. I'll get on to large maps later because woo wee is that a major issue. If your totems is found you can try and use it to get some pressure spreading damage out but again you will lose the totem. Plenty of players know this that's why many experience players acknowledge its inevitable it's gonna be taken down.

On the subject of comm's and swf where is this data. The inability to access this data is rather infuriating. How is its parsed do we account for difference in ranks (incoming rank doesn't matter even though that yellow ranked meg is self caring in a corner). If I want to check the data on how a champion is performing in lol or dota I can easily bring up sites and get the information there yet dbd tends to restrict that information. I don't care how the greens and yellows are doing I'm interested in what red ranks and how players with higher win rates are doing with x perks and x add-ons.

You used the hag as an example but her counterplay admittedly much more tricky has some glaring holes. If every player keeps deliberately messing with her web she falls apart as a killer. It not easy but that again is why she's one of the better killers I acknowledge this. Flashlight will horribly mess her up but that's just a given. A lot of killers who are less trap based and lack that snowball potential think wraith, pig, bubba, ph etc do will struggle to claw back games. Killers bouncing back from a poor start is not the norm and the point I'm making is that the odds are stacked against you when going up against competent players. Max no of pallets in play, breakable walls are in effect creating infinites structures like shack are available and are at max power.

Now I agree undying needed a nerf but your opening sentence implied you were happy with it as is. Even though it is not fit for its purpose. There were two ways to go with making undying effective.

A. Its loses its aura reading entirely and now instead of two totems being in play there is the one totem you have active. Upon destruction another dull totem lights up so your chance of a hex totem being broken is reduced thus prolonging the ruin or hex perk effect.

B. Hex undying triggers a maximum of two times no more so instead of breaking 4 or 5 ruins you would have to deal with 3 totems a much fairer and reasonable number.

Finally whataboutism is dressing denial of an issue as a positive. No these all exist in the same ecosystem of play this all matters. Scott even engaged in the concept he talked about when pop got nerfed and question why is ds remaining as is. There are two sides to dbd if you reduce the power of one side you need to consider the other so the scales of imbalance don't get horribly mangled. If the dev's have a change that's gonna hurt one side at the very least withhold it until both sides receive a prepared nerf or changes that should keep the balance of power in check.

Map adjustments? Are we not paying heed to the fact that nearly every map from legion onwards (bar reworked maps) has been a large map. You can adjust maps all you like but when they keep making massive complexes I really have to question if they are being genuine or just lying to our face. I present all of these issues and the answer is its being addressed be patient meanwhile haddonfield is still the most disgusting piece of trash to grace dbd despite not receiving the necessary fix with years of time to improve it. The claim of we addressed the large fences long ago was a blatant lie. Since then no changes.

Finally as survivor to get a comparison across you are a control player your goal is to outlast the killer which is the aggro role. The survivor has a map with a wide access of control tools(structures). The aggro killer player has to navigate the control tool's used by the survivor to get the hook. Killer skill expression is down to the survivor making a misplay, either mispositioning or choosing to use a tile that is unfavorable or is lacking the necessary defenses. The killer chases the survivor this is the nature of the role the killer can herd or manipulate certain misplays but its up to the survivor to make those decision's. Your last sentence makes no sense. How can I not know what I'm doing if I'm deliberately trying to manipulate the survivor into taking an action I know will be unfavorable. Yes you have agency as a killer player but the agency is very limited by a lack of good stall tools(that are being continuously nerfed e.g thantophobia, pop and undying.

Answer to the first paragraph: hexed were designed that way, tho. High risk with high reward. Devour is the perfect example, it might be cleansed the first 30 seconds of the match, but it can also last for an entire trial. Undying shouldn't remove the risk factor and amplify it with rng. What annoys you, if I understand correctly, is that if your totem is found the killer has two options: either keep an eye out for it while pressuring near gens or abandon it. So you're basically annoyed by the design of hexes. Other perks can have similar effects and they're not hexes. I can't imagine any hex besides retribution and haunted grounds being a normal perk. That's why the have a simple design:

If you equip a hex you have a gamble. Either it will give a lot of value, or give you nothing but a wasted perk slot. The mere premise of undying was simple: give the hexes protection in the form of rng, basically ensure that the hexes have value which is a major design flaw. It was basically thrill of the hunt, but the killer didn't have to pressure survivors away from his totems. So basically a perk did a part of the killer's job for him and removed the high risk high reward nature of hexes, so why shouldn't it get nerfed?

On the second paragraph, the devs actually release some data they collect from time to time for research purposes. It is rather infuriating that it happens once a year or so, but they still are valid. You mentioned different websites in league and dota. As a league player, as far as I know, the sites don't inform you on how often you team up with friends, besides showing the match history. So the ultimate change here is to make a match history for dbd which I want.

Also, ranks don't matter the devs also admitted that. It basically shows you how much dbd you played in one month.

Hag is a powerful killer because if played correctly, the survivors can't really counter her easily (michi is the best example, I won't go into detail my answer is already the size of a whole forum). Because killers struggle to regain pressure when they're losing that doesn't mean it's impossible. Obviously they'll struggle since they couldn't get a good start, which is the killer's fault. But they still have high chances of winning. A strat on trapper is to make a part of the map a minefield, so survivors are forced to interact with it and the game becomes stale. Pig has her beartraps where you can get a free kill or a lot of pressure since trapped survivors usually search boxes first.

Third paragraph: since you agree that undying needed a nerf then why are we arguing exactly? Both your changes are exceptional, I don't mind them because they still FIX what is frustrating about the perk don't they? So you basically agree with me on that part.

About whataboutism, a lot of people in the community think that if the devs fix something broken on one side, the other side should also have the same treatment. Or most importantly, "you can't nerf x if y (other sides broken #########) isn't fixed. When y is fixed you can nerf x". Whataboutism is like a plague in dbd, no pun intended. I always see forums and post saying ######### like "moris were nerfed, but what about keys? Of course the devs will make a survivor side adjustment since they only want survivors to have fun", even tho they've mentioned that the only reason they didn't nerf the keys alongside moris, is because they have bigger plans than just changing a 1 to a 2. Unfortunately it's a pretty common strategy, but doesn't really prove any point. Just because one thing is bad, it doesn't mean that the other thing isnt.

I don't remember the number of the paragraph so I'll say "the map paragraph". Deathslingers map is actually one of the smallest maps believe it or not. New ormond is also smaller than it used to be (I think, I can be mistaken but I can do some research, the rework still bangs tho). Same goes for the new clown map rework. I don't really see the map design getting worse, but better. The trapper map reworks made em, arguably, the most balanced maps in all of dbd. So I think that they try to fix their mistakes.

The game is considered an asymmetrical horror game, where a survivor is rewarding for being either good at chases or immersed but helpful. The killer doesn't capitalize on mistakes to win, they use their skill to outsmart a survivor resulting in a hit. You can argue that a hit isn't a result of the killer's skill, but for a survivor's mistake. But this is like saying "you don't outplay anyone, they just made a missplay". It completely negates the killer's skill. The game has two teams, the survivors who need to escape and in chases spend as much time as possible by CAPITALIZING on the killer's mistakes and various mechanics, while the killer tries to end the chase as soon as possible by outsmarting a survivor and use various tricks to result in a hit. If you want, I can direct you to scott's and otz's videos where they basically say what I say but a lot clearer, and if you'd like I can also post the actual people that use swfs according to the last release of that information, if I find em of course.