Another Pop Thread
This was created mainly because I thought my comment was too good to be lost in the depths of another thread. It was also created because all sorts of search features are broken, and I wouldn't be able to find this one later if it wasn't a discussion of my own.
(Edit:
POP GOES THE WEASEL:
All generator skill check needles move 20/35/50% faster. Each time a survivor fails a skill check on a generator that you've kicked at least once before in a match, a tremendously difficult skill check is triggered immediately after.)
Why Pop is BAd for the game:
20 seconds x 2 hooks maximum for a survivor without dying x 4 survivors = 160 additional seconds, or 2 more generators. That's without killing people. It's at least another half of a generator if two survivors die. That's not including gen regression because survivors don't want to let the killer Pop the same generator twice or just generator regression in general. Those seconds could very well mean the difference between all survivors dying and 3 or more getting out of the match alive.
It's the more hooks a killer gets, the more gens the killer gets and the less likely the killer will every be challenged by a group of survivors that doesn't tryhard on gens and only plays to enjoy the atmosphere. How does that kind of reward in this kind of ranking system make sense? If the community wants survivors to stop "genrushing", then perks like Pop need to not be a thing. How in the world are the devs supposed to balance their game by adding extra time to some survivor action when Pop exists?
Additionally, you speak like Overcharge isn't a perk you can use to trip up survivors who aren't paying attention, punishing survivors in a different way than Pop does. You also speak like Surveillance isn't a perk or that just in general a generator that has suddenly stopped regressing means a survivor is nearby.
Yes, it's true that kicking generators is not a reliable way for you to stop the progress of a survivor who is looping around a generator, but that's not what the mechanic is for, I should point out. It's to prevent survivors from bringing all gens to 99% before finishing the last one. It's to give killers some way of avoiding the frustrating scenario of running around, trying to find a survivor, when all the gens can be popped at one touch. Gen regression has grown to do a lot more than that, and I'm not sure that's such a good thing, especially since it moved from just forcing the game to move forward to actually impacting balance over the course of the match. There are good points about that, but I'm not sure the bad points are less influential.
Regardless, it's not solely a question of map sizes and gen speeds (sounds like you are regurgitating a number of streamers rn); it's a question of what survivors have to do in the match other than gens to ensure their survival.
If you think of the generator mechanic in its most simplest form, it is an advanced timer. It serves as the time the killer has to kill all survivors until they escape. A killer can elongate this timer by intimidating survivors into hiding, by forcing all survivors to abandon their objective to be altruistic, or through applying many injuries that either incapacitate survivors or require healing to reduce danger levels. All the interesting parts of the game revolve outside of the generator: chases, planning tactics on how to save other survivors, evading the killer, etc.
Giving the killer a way to directly add time onto that timer without actually proving him/herself to be smarter, wittier, and more brutal than the survivors is wrong. Getting hooks is something that just happens over the course of the game. When hooks don't happen, the survivors are stomping the killer, and in that case, extra time IS needed, but Pop doesn't do that. Pop only adds time to games where the killer already has the upper hand and doesn't need Pop to win. If survivors shorten the timer by being efficient (i.e. having chases where gens aren't, splitting up on separate generators, forcing hooks to happen where generators are already finished, etc.), again, Pop doesn't come into play. Pop only comes into play when a survivor isn't "genrushing" or try-harding, and so Pop inherently punishes survivors who are already being punished. It's the ultimate salt in the wounds for survivors facing any decent killer that knows how to pressure the map. You don't NEED Pop if you're doing well (and you shouldn't be pushing close matches over the edge into your favor just by bringing in one perk; that's stupid), and you CAN'T use Pop when you NEED its effects.
Old Ruin was a better designed perk than Pop if only because it made sure survivors were at the peak of their game but NOT directly related to pumping out generators; only on hitting skill checks. Yes, that affected gen speed, but in a different (and healthier) way than Pop does. The only issue with Ruin was the condition for the hex to be applied (which could have been solved through place-able totems or a percentage-based token system that gained tokens the more gens were done). It did not need a rework, and the developers didn't even solve the issue of a lack of optional survivor actions (because survivors can survive in some cases without using any pallets*). All that they did was move the brunt of dealing with the issue from one perk to the next.
SPOILER WARNING
The reason that this is in spoilers is to prevent it from coloring my post, but I want you to know that this is coming from a Rank 1 killer with over 2,000 hours in the game who didn't like using Hex: Ruin even though this killer started out as a Hag main and still doesn't like using any slowdown (or instadown**) perks that require no effort on my part. That means no: 1. Pop 2. Thanatophobia 3. Ruin 4. Corrupt Intervention 5. Thrilling Temors 6. NOED 7. Sloppy Butcher. I camp, slug, and patrol whenever necessary, and I will greed every single last survivor to their deaths. The perks that bug me when used by survivors (because I don't use "slowdown" perks) are Deliverance, Soul Guard, and Borrowed Time (because BT shouldn't use the Deep Wounds mechanic, and it's too often used for extremely aggressive plays instead of defensive ones). I used to use Knockout primarily on Huntress due to how her hatchets could put dying survivors into the injured state nowhere near me (survivors had less info to go off of where a dying survivor was) until the devs made Knockout unappealing and worthless imo (they shouldn't have touched Knockout). I also think additional hook offerings are underrated, usually get 2+ kills per game, and loved playing survivor until the more recent patches (which just make immersed fun NOT fun, and that's mainly due to slowdown perks and unusual killer hit detection along with sound design and survivors farming me off of hooks even in red ranks). So, please understand that I have significant experience in the world where Pop does not exist, and it feels pretty balanced to me when a killer uses every last thing at his/her disposal (this is an issue for another post because this one's too long already).
Didn't want to write this (but I did :/) because the posts already exist; I just can't access them.
(Edit: Hallelujah! The search function is fixed!)
P.S. if you think an additional two generators makes the game balanced, then you should not be advocating for Pop to stay as it is and instead be advocating for two more generators. Don't you want perk diversity??
*see: [searching (maybe making?) for post about early game survivor-pallet interaction. This will be edited later.]
** Devour Hope is an exception because it's too good to pass up. It's seen above 7% usage in all of my games this summer.
Edit #whatever (because some people don't believe there have been previous ones):
@FlamingkittyUmad said:
A lot of people will be in denial over this because of how much they rely on it, but this perk in it's current form is not healthy for the game. Hooking a survivor already cripples the team, the limitless gen regression makes it way too easy to snowball. Imagine if survivors got a free BNP any time they pallet stun the killer? Yeah..
What the perk really needs is a cooldown OR restrict how many times it can be used on one gen consecutively (less reduction after every use on one specific gen maybe)
--
Kind_Lemon
An advocate of place-able totems, a priming-pallet interaction, and the removal of Exposed from tier 1 Devour Hope.
Also supports changes to how many survivors need to be present to start repairs on a generator.
#revertNurseaddons #reverttieroneDevour #reverttieroneBL #nofreechaseresources #placeabletotems #revertBillysounds #workwiththemusicyouhave
Comments
okay, so I wrote you a shorter reply earlier because I was tight on time for the moment, but since you brought it up, the Sabotage and Saboteur issue has a solid place in my heart.
First off, I don't like what the devs did to toolboxes. Having a burst of speed only at specific points is totally worse (for me and the way I play my games) than having toolboxes that shaved more time but over a longer period. But that's not my main point; back to sabo!
How sabotage should work
Sabotaging takes 18 seconds.
Hooks do not automatically respawn.
If a survivor wiggles off of a killer's shoulder and there are no useable hooks within 32 meters, then all hooks within 72 meters respawn after a ten second delay.
Each time a hook is sabotaged, it will take 6 seconds longer to sabotage every consecutive time.
Hook caps are changed so that hooks spawned in because of their restrictions are spawned in already sabotaged and will not respawn until a survivor wiggles off (see above criteria).
What this does
Survivors are discouraged from sabotaging all the hooks in one area. Survivors are encouraged to leave one or two hooks standing unless absolutely necessary to prevent a critical hook from occurring. Survivors will be able to sabotage hooks near objectives and in dead zones to force the killer to hook a survivor in less convenient places.
Killers won't be put into situations where they cannot hook anyone and will be forced to think more tactically in many cases about what the survivors are doing in terms of hook placement.
Perks
Saboteur
Hangman's Trick
If this was in a PTB, you would never have problems with sabo, and it would be used outside of just niche builds.
Huh. So, Pop's getting nerfed. I understand the idea behind the nerf, but A. I disagree with how you're going about it (I still think the perk is the epitome of bad design, but less so in the PTB, and DS or Deliverance will probably replace it imo) and B. Why wasn't this done sooner? This reasoning could have been given months ago.
TL;DR. The devs are nerfing it without looking at how badly it is designed. Great.