Fixing camping, emblem gain in edge cases, bp gain for all and promoting healthy gameplay. a thread.
Right so this is going to be a somewhat incredibly lengthy discussion on everything and more from the title but it all surrounds encouraging good play over bad play, and rewarding those whom actually play the game well. @Peanits @not_Queen i'd appreciate a look on one of your lockdown lunch breaks, though i completely understand if you or any other dev/anyone else doesn't read the whole thing, (though reading it all gives greater context as to my thought process) as its gotten incredibly long at this point.... I've segmented it into sections to make for an easier read/if people don't wish to read all the sections and purely discuss one thing.
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Section on camping, qualifications for camping, A survivor dying on hook/progressing a hook stage due to not being saved whilst your not camping, and the actual player who is being camped. Camping despite being a legitamate strategy in very edge case scenarios (ie endgame 1 kill, in order to rank up) is generally an awful strategy, and should be more heavily discouraged in terms of rank, and in terms of fun, as its incredibly unfun to have it done to you.
Killers shouldn't be punished for leaving the hook when a survivor progress a stage in terms of emblems/bp, But should be punished more harshly in terms of emblem score (not bp)
if a killer player only hook's someone once at the end of the game as their the last player, or they hook someone once/twice and no one saves them on hook, you should get the full amount of sacrafice points so long as you didn't camp them. This is because in these edge scenarios the game ends before you can get the rest of the sacrafice points from the player you couldn't catch all game and caught last/the other survivor also dies before being able to be hooked multiple times despite you as killer having no say in the matter (ie you were pressuring other team-mates and prevented them from saving from a distance/other survivors just did gens and you shouldn't be punished for that.) Killers should also be granted a small immunity to being within the 32m radius (atleast on very small, small maps/around hooks with no pathways) or when their using their power to set up (ie hag/trapper should have their timers paused somewhat, as placing a good trap sometimes takes priorty over leaving a hooked survivor.) Obvs a leatherface/Hillbilly doesn't exactly count for this.
(dying light/other unhook related perks, should also be the only perks effected by this, as you should't be unable to get tokens purely because a survivor didn't save said person on hook. if your outside of 32m ie not camping and the player goes into struggle phase (ie you haven't been camping) or they die on hook, you should gain a stack. maybe huntress lullaby/devour hope should be affected? i mean your losing out on a hook state/token, even though you didn't camp them.)
On the absolute flipside of this, hooking and camping a survivor, (ie standing within 16m without another survivor around/typical camping rule set) should give less points when a survivor goes into struggle/death phase and also should demote the emblems more heavily. This is already somewhat in the game, however its impact is somewhat lacking as found in the otzdarva experiment. This will prevent people from ranking up more easily, if they play more "scummy" and camp whilst they have all the opportunity in the world to not do so. Hooking someone within 10-15s of them being unhooked should grant a slightly lower emblem amount (As to prevent camping.) this penalty should be ignored i repeat in situations where you haven't camped or are away from hook/hook another survivor. Catching a survivor after they've been fully healed (default 16s), have BT (15s), or have DS and are picked up, but miss it within that 16s time period - should have this penalty halved, as they had ample opportunity to get away but simply messed up. ie if you catch them whilst their playing overly agressive, rather then your tunneling them off a hook, you shouldn't be penalised, however for camping/re-hooking a camped survivor.
Rehooking a survivor as such should also have an effect on the Hunter category, not sacrafice, as you didn't have a proper chase with them. Could also possibly only activate this penalty after having camped a player. Simply downing a player and "Slugging them" should not enable this penalty though, however slugging someone after camping them/camping their dying body on the ground (within 4-8m) should as thats not allowing any natural gameplay. that would simply be waiting out the penalty (obvs not applicable if your racing back to the unhook and you down the survivor/slug them.) ie returning to hook after a chase/exiting the radius to a save = not bad, but repeatedly downing and hooking the same survivor after camping = bad. also other small edge situations such as only two survivors left, one goes for the save, and you down both and hook both should not be punished.
Actually being camped as a player though... Thats rough buddy, we've all been there atleast once. Lot of edge case scenarios with this one but the overall fact is this - A player being camped should not ever be deranked due to an inability to play an organic game. Sure, there are times in the endgame collapse perhaps, where the killer just wants to get one kill, and so they stay next to you to ensure that. thats not camping, thats a killer fighting for their absolute life to retain rank after a hard match, but when you haven't had ample time to gain embem points, or worse yet bloodpoints? It feels pretty bad to run into a leatherface at the start of the match, and be immediately insidious camped to death with no ability to play the game, and a player shouldn't be further punished for this by being penalized in emblems or bp. The uber easy solution? grant a player more struggle points/survival points if the killer is in "camping radius" and automatically give them a black pip. this would have to be dependnant on the actual time spent off hook, and the players endgame bp gain. if a person would end a match with lets say 800-2000/3000 bp, they've been camped. (there would be a lower limit, as if a player is simply afk, they wouldn't gain struggle points and therefore be below 800 for not struggling on hook. if a player would of normall black pipped/or gained more points then that in a match/spent time outside of being camped no bonus should be granted. Give people a black pip/5000bp if they are. seems like a fair compromise if the killer really, really wants to camp them.
Also a small perk addition to this section : DS timer should stop upon hooking another survivor. Thats not a tunnel in that case, its just free immunity. at the very least, shrink the skill check for DS upon the killer hooking another survivor/pressuring everyone else in order to make it harder to abuse. BT could also be adjusted in a similar way due to edge cases such as multiple basement hooks being effected, (ie survivors being saved right next to each other in seconds of being hooked) which ultimately denies the killer giant amounts of pressure for free, granting free saves for playing in such a way that shouldn't be rewarded. i wouldn't know how to change BT, but something such as a survivor using BT to save one, then using it on another, should deactivate the original BT, same with a survivor using BT when they have an active BT timer, just to prevent 3 consecutive BT immunity hits.
TLDR for this section? :
Killers should be punished more harshly for being in a tight radius around a survivor (16m) then the 32m/if the killer is actively patrolling (ie in cases where bbq goes off but they think a survivors near, so they check maybe one or two lockers before leaving etc), they should not be punished if the survivors don't save before progressing another hook state ie there off chasing another survivor, and the rest are doing gens so they get less bp/emblems when a survivor progress a hook state/dies, and a killer should be actively discouraged for a very small time period from hooking someone whilst they have been just saved, Even more so if they had been camped. Players who are camped should not be punished as such, and should also gain a small lil gift for having suffered through a non natural game.
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BP perks such as wglf/bbq should have their effects tied to the base game. im not talking the aura reading effect of bbq.
- For killers, this should be an upto 25% postgame (or 8.3 for fair hook states) increase based on each survivor hooked. its simple and encourages hooking multiple people during the course of the game. this bp increase should be lost if the killer camps a survivor for too long a period (Excluding having a survivor running around the hook preventing you from leaving etc granting a free save traditional stuff.) Killers should be granted unlike survivors a bonus for killing all survivor's, not to total bp gained, but to bp percentage ie it acts as if they earned it faster, encouraging them to kill all survivors whilst not camping. Could be also based on emblems.
- Survivors bp postgame bonus should be gained as such : one stack for surviving, one stack for doing progress on a gen upwards of 75-100% across all gens, one stack for doing an altruistic activity such as bodyblocking for an injured person/getting a hook save, and one stack for escaping a chase with a killer, or at the very least, taking the killers attention away from an already being chased survivor. it encourages completeing all objectives and not soley doing one thing in the match. However in edge cases such as the killer not hooking enough people for all to get a altruisim increase bp stack/a survivor running a killer for multiple gens they should also get a positive bp bonus for having contributed in a differing fashion to those objectives similar as to how a player running a killer for multiple gens, will still get lightborn points and pip even though they didn't do gens. Could also be based on emblems.
Wglf and bbq and chilli should be changed thusly : granting 25% increases to bp speed gain (like other perks) up until a peak of 100% throughout the match. ie they hit the cap faster. wglf should also have the bonus effect of revealing the killer for 4s if their outside of a certain radius towards the unhooked survivor, and to yourself much like bbq. They'll still grant bp faster (if you get all stacks you'll essentially double any gained bp in your categorys) but they won't lift the cap anymore. the cap will lift if you actually do well in a match, and also allow players more diversity in a match by opening and unrestricting builds for those whom only run those perks for the bp in order to progress faster. it also forces killers to do more/survivors to do more if they want their extra bp. hooking 4 survivors is easy for the most part (and you could even have it be a 8.3 bp increase per actual hook encouraging multiple hooking, granting 25% for a survivor being dead if they were not camped.) and unhooking/bodyblocking as a survivor can be incredibly easy if you just only do that instead of playing the objective and the actual game.
Small additional section on things i wished were the case? : Bp offerings should also enhance the bp gained in their respective categorys like prove thyself/distressing. Makes them easier to use. Also being healed by another survivor should grant the respective heal points in survival, which would help flesh out the survival category a LOT more, and make it fillable against all killers, for simply everyone healing. Self care/healing from a pool of devotion/mending already grants survival bp for healing, so the same should go for another survivor healing you
TLDR for this section? : Perk postgame xp should be moved to being based on emblems/preformance during a match, removed from the perks themselves, and be entirely reliant on playing well against the opposing team. Perks reworked to have slightly differing effects, and instead of a postgame bonus just a bonus to gain. Also additional survival points from being healed to match current being healed effects such as Self caring/mending and healing from a pool of devotion.
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big unneccessary tangent about match xp and how that should encourage good gameplay over long gameplay as well.
(Also a small side note towards player experience gain and the match. a higher priority should be placed on the actual emblems gained during the match rather then time played, with the time played bonus being extended. ie emblems at iridecent should grant more xp, with those at maybe silver/bronze and no emblem giving next to no xp or no xp at all. Match time xp should be also gained on a exponential level, gaining more at the start of a match and progressivly less past the 5-10 min mark up until 20mins (as i've had matches last that long due to hiding blendettes the whole match, hostage doc scenarios, basically any game that goes for a really long period of time.) This places a higher impact on acutally doing well within a match, ie having 200xp for a iridcent emblem and progressivly less towards bronze, whilst allowing passive xp gain to be more impactful towards the start of a match, being that a 5 min match alone should grant 100xp, but that a 20 min match should grant up to 200. Xp gain shouldn't really be above 800-1000 per match if its a perfect but long match. atm you gain 1xp per second and 18 for a iri emblem. thats around 600 for a 10min match with only slightly higher amounts for emblems. it should be the reverse, and capped slightly higher to encourage good play and actually doing a really good match, rather then a long match. This also will result in slower xp gain as well, so it evens out. if a player has a bad match, or just simply an incredibly short/ultra long one with no real activites in it, it will only really grant them around 500xp. the perfect match xp should be between 800-1000, (200 for every emblem being perfect, and 100 for a 5 min game, with an extra 100 being gained for a match upwards of 10mins.))
also match time xp shouldn't be capped, HOWEVER the game should have an automated endgame collapse for running to long. if for example, survivors just kept hiding in lockers, never being found or went all blendettes and hid in corners pointing/a wraith standing invisible in a corner of the match, the game should end after 20mins. Active activities such as chases etc should ignore this automated endgame collapse and make the game function as normal. This is to purely stop wraiths gaining passive xp/other players annoying the killer endlessly through prolonging a non-normal game. activating the endgame collapse like this should grant a -50% xp penalty to all players, for just making the game last obsessively long, however should not give the penalty if its a hostage situation where survivors and killers are at a stalemate (ie they've been doing things for a very long time, and neither can gain the advantage.)
TLDR for this section? : Emblem xp should be more impactful then passive match xp, with passive match xp being an exponential decline from the start of the match. whilst the match xp should no longer be capped, the endgame collapse should also activate in edge situations where players are doing nothing, with their xp being capped for well, doing nothing all match.
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In conclusion i feel like these changes would more heavily discourage camping, allow all players to gain a 64000 bp total rather then being locked behind paywalls/luck in the shrine/perk builds, but require players to actually do uber well in a match to do so. if you commit only to one objective as survivor/don't go for saves and only escape, you won't have many if any bonuses, whilst the same goes for killer. not participating in normal gameplay ie having no chases and downing everyone through progressive camping and insta-downs of injured unhooked players will not give you much of a bp boost if at all, let alone your emblems. You would have to actually play the game, in order to get bonuses towards emblems/bp, and if not then you'll be stuck at the regular bp cap of 32000 a match of which you may not even fill whilst only getting mediocre emblem points at best.
TLDR : higher punishments for camping ^ encouraging the filling of all emblems ^ stopping a killer being punished by survivors for not camping ^ bp bonus to all respective of their gained emblems ^ unlocking extra bp for all players without the need for perks to fill up builds on killers and survivors ^ discourage camping/hiding in a locker all game? ^
And now for an apology. this is an incredibly lengthy post, but i wanted to get out all of my feelings on the natural flow of the game, how it could be bettered, and how things could be changed in order to make the game feel more fair on both sides of the coin, whilst also making sure that players whom actually play well, who participate in all actions of the game and actually do incredibly well within a match are rewarded for it. i want red ranks to mean something, for players in it to have gotten there by being mechanically skilled, and also have an indepth knowledge of the game. Sure a majority of map, killer, and perk changes for both sides are compeltely neccessary and needed for the game to become truly balanced, but the rank and bloodpoint/xp systems aren't as harsh/lightweight as they need to be in some areas. Encouraging better play, and discouraging bad play/very very cheap play (ie camp to death) will go a long ways towards improving game health and ranks as a whole. Sure the rank system can also be quite hard on killer as well, and a bit easy on survivor, but the fact stays the same that these changes would help negate a bit of that.
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