Zenbe10
Zenbe10
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@Critical_Fish said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/820399#Comment_820399
"A few critiques" you tore apart over half of the perk...
First off, the first part of the effect could just be a moderately difficult skillcheck. That'd be better than removing it entirely. Also, a build like that would rarely win games. Remember, to win killers practically require Hex: Ruin AND BBQ and Chili (at mid to high levels.)
The mori part is legit meaningless... Alone it is not worth even a consideration for a perk slot. Maybe at 15 seconds the Survivor is instantly sacrificed? That would require your favorite part of the perk to be removed, though, wouldn't it? Or at least be nerfed to 12/16/20 seconds or something of the sort. Since oh no moris at 30 seconds is too op, and sacrificing at 15 is the same thing but faster and with greater reward.
I'm not sure if you're addressing me or the OP in most of this post, nor do I know why you seem to have taken a condescending tone. But I will humor you.
Some sort of status condition that made skill checks moderately difficult for X amount of time could work. But again, If you want a perk that does this, run Unnerving Presence. If you say this is better than Unnerving Presence, that's a problem because perks that are just functionally better versions of other existing perks shouldn't be added. And if you say it's worse than Unnerving, why run Splintering Blows instead?
Although it is a discussion for another thread, I will strongly disagree with the idea that Hex: Ruin and BBQ are needed to win as killer in high ranks. In fact, it is the opposite. Bad killers need those as a crutch, whereas there are MANY amazing killers who only use one or neither of those perks at red ranks and get 4ks all the time. But even assuming you are right, run Splintering Bones, Unnerving Presence, Hex: Ruin, and BBQ. Imagine having Hex: Ruin skill checks reduced to the size of a DS skillcheck. No thanks.
I think both of you are looking at balancing this from an M1 killer perspective. Sure, if Trapper had this perk it'd probably be fine. But in the hands of high-mobility killers like Spirit? Freddy? Nurse? Or stealth killers that often get free hits such as Pig or Ghostface? Basic attacks for all these killers are easy to do, and this perk would give them a huge benefit on top of these comparatively easy health state hits.
I don't understand people's fascination with killing survivors by some other means than hooking them. Reduction of the dying state timer by itself is an alternate method of death, why does one perk need to have two different kill conditions ON TOP OF hooking survivors like how the game is supposed to be played? Automatic sacrifice doesn't make any sense if they're gonna die in 15 seconds anyways, and I forgot to mention before that the mori part of the original design would allow you to kill a survivor that has never been hooked after one down.
As always these are only my opinions so take it or leave it. If you prefer to be unrealistic in your expectations for perks, that's your prerogative. But simply making this "Whenever the survivor is put into the dying state by your basic attack, the death timer of their dying state is reduced by 20/30/40 seconds" would be a good, interesting, and relatively balanced perk.
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@Rezblaze said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/820399#Comment_820399
Could be a timer instead; instead of having it until they're healed to full, they have tremendously difficult skillchecks for 60 seconds.
I'm still not sure I'm sold... that would be effectively taking a survivor out of the game for 60 seconds simply for landing a basic attack. That seems like quite a high reward for the most basic of killer actions.
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A few critiques:
1. The first part of the perk would be incredibly difficult to balance with Unnerving Presence. Imagine a build with Splintering Blows, Distressing, Unnerving Presence, and Sloppy Butcher. Survivors would be unable to heal to full without letting you know where they are, plus it takes forever, plus they’re missing skill-checks. (Look up Unnerving + Overcharge on YouTube. It’s nasty. But that happens ONCE per kicked gen. Now imagine that EVERY skill check, including healing which you need to do to get rid of this insane debuff.) I’m not sure a debuff like this would ever be fair.
2. The third part of this perk is also too much. Rancor requires it to be endgame (and only one survivor) and Hex: Devour Hope requires a lot of work beforehand and is a hex. This has neither of those conditions. Plus, perks that encourage slugging are not exactly common, and that’s for good reason. You want a slugging nurse with Nurse’s Calling to have this? Then you die on the floor and if someone tries to heal you, they get slugged too. This third part would be too good even as its own perk.
3. I like the second part a lot. That alone would be a good perk. That alone would apply a lot of pressure, and would cause people to die on the floor a lot more than you’d think. Plus, it still encourages slugging like what you’re going for. I think if it was to actually be balanced, this perk would only be the second part you’ve written, where whenever the survivor is put into the dying state by your basic attack, the death timer of their dying state is reduced by 20/25/30 seconds. Having it do that PLUS the other two extremely powerful (and abuseable) things you’ve mentioned would be unthinkably broken.
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Bloody coil is not an incentive to lose a health state, it is a disincentive to disarming trams. Freddy and Clown movement speed slowdowns are location-based, not permanent conditions. Freddy’s action speed slow downs are only to some actions, not all. And those killer builds are gimmick add-on builds, not base powers.
The reason I have not offered many solutions is because I don’t want to tell you how to make your killer or hijack your idea. I don’t claim to be able to “make a better Reaper” than you can. I fully believe that you are the one who can make the best version, considering it is your concept, but other perspectives can help you get there. However, if you do want my take (while considering your preferences) here it is:
Primary Power: Soul Thief
· You may charge your Scythe for 2 seconds to ready your power, gradually slowing down to 3.6 M/S (90%) during the charge (average of 100% M/S if released immediately).
· Releasing the charge will reap all healthy or injured Survivors within a 10 meter radius regardless of obstacles, causing them to scream and granting you their soul.
· Your terror radius is reduced by 8 meters per soul in your possession.
· Soulless survivors preform ALL actions 10% slower including movement and vaulting.
· The Reaper can’t pick up or hook soulless survivors.
· To regain their soul Survivors must head to the single sacrificial alter. A survivor may interact with the alter for four seconds to reclaim their soul. When a survivor retrieves their soul from the alter, the Reaper gets a notification and can immediately teleport to the alter.
· The Reaper can interact with the alter to sacrifice all souls in his possession. These souls are returned to their respective survivors. The auras of survivors whose souls are returned are revealed to the Reaper for 60 seconds and those survivors suffer from the exposed status effect for 60 seconds.
Secondary Power: Void Strike
· While holding at least one soul of a survivor, the Reaper may teleport forward in a very fast attack in a straight line, which is interrupted by obstacles such as pallets, walls, and vaults. The first survivor that is passed through in this line is hit by an attack.
· Soulless survivors lose one health state.
· Survivors who have their souls are immediately put into the dying state.
Obviously this has problems too (again I don’t claim to have the best possible solution) but I think it fits thematically with a reaper because the reaper should want to chase survivors WITH souls. If a reaper already have someone’s soul, why are they trying to kill them? And being able to teleport to the alter after a soul is regained has the same essence of the health state sacrifice idea (makes it very dangerous for an injured survivor to do it and makes a healthy survivor very likely to take a hit), but requires time dedication by the killer. I can share more of my rationale of course. I appreciate the discourse as well.
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Freddy's slow-down effects are only to repair, sabotage, and healing speeds. This killer would slow down those actions plus: searching, totem breaking, unhooking, exit gate opening, vaulting, and movement speed (at all times) with up to 16% to ALL these actions with add-ons. Not to mention add-ons that apply mangled and broken status effects at brown and yellow, which makes the health state sacrifice even more insane.
Freddy isn't the best example here. Survivors have an independent way of getting out of the dream world through the clock (without a health state sacrifice), a cooperative way of getting out of the dream world through waking each other up, AND are automatically pulled from the dream world when hooked. The Reaper as it stands has ONLY the independent way of getting your soul back, plus a huge penalty for doing so.
I'm not sure I agree that any power can be balanced. As I've pointed out, this power already subverts several balance principles of the game: it encourages survivors to sacrifice health states (not currently in the game), it includes action speed slowdown debuffs (including movement speed) as part of the base kit (not currently in the game), and is a 110% killer with no range or movement abilities (not currently in the game).
Despite my main criticism being the punishment for regaining your soul being far too much, you seem to still be of the opinion that it is "necessary" and not open to change. I'm not sure how I can help when my suggestions are brushed aside like that. You asked for feedback and I gave it, you can do with it what you will of course. I don't have a horse in this race, I just wanted to offer my perspective. If you decide that your killer is good as is despite my opinion, then more power to you. It's your creation.
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Numbering for simplicity:
1. Void Strike giving souls back to injured survivors is not negative utility because you still get to use Void Strike, which sounds like it’s effectively a Nurse blink (which has 333% movement speed) with no charge up time. Also apparently it can hit multiple survivors at once, which makes taking a hit for a survivor you just unhooked completely useless (which is one of the best tools survivors have against tunneling). And if the survivor being chased has no soul, then the Reaper is effectively a 120% speed killer that has applied the exposed status effect to that survivor already.
2. I think you’re forgetting that a 10% debuff to all actions is BRUTAL. It increases time for survivors to traverse the map to reach generators AND to get hook saves. Think of how often survivors need to mad dash in a straight line across the map when they realize their teammates are about to reach second stage / death on the hook and even at full speed they often don’t make it in time. It decreases healing speed to help other soulless survivors get healed so they can get their soul back and then need to reheal after they get their soul back. I can’t fathom how it sounds like a good idea to have a power that incentives the following scenario:
3. Picture this: You are a survivor that is being chased by the Reaper. The Reaper catches up enough to steal your soul, which is not hard as a 110% killer to get in a 10m range of a survivor (see Huntress). The Reaper then smacks you once as you cross a vault (again, not hard for a 110% killer to do), then Void Strikes you with a pseudo-Nurse blink to the ground at your next open running phase of the chase. You are then hooked with no soul. You are saved by another survivor (who potentially takes 10% longer to reach you because they are soulless themselves, which could cause you to go to second phase). That survivor then heals you (potentially with a 10% penalty due to being soulless themselves) and you have to run at 90% movement speed to an exposed position where you get back your soul at an alter after four whole seconds of standing there. You are then, once again, injured. You have to be healed again by a teammate (potentially with a 10% penalty due to being soulless). Then you run to a generator, only for the Reaper to show up. The Reaper then steals your soul, and the process starts all over again, if you are lucky enough not to be Void Striked to the ground due to being exposed and being dead on hook. I'm sure killer mains would love how this keeps survivors completely unable to do generators. But there is NO WAY that any survivor player would find this fair or fun or balanced.
4. I think you are also forgetting that no other killer has passive slowdown effects for actions as part of their power. Huntress, Spirit, and Hag (the other 110% killers) do not have any sort of 10% action slowdown associated with them. Plague’s power has no action speed slowdown. Freddy’s Dream World has no action speed slowdown. The reason for this is that if a killer like Reaper were to use perks like Hex: Ruin, thanatophobia, dying light, etc. it would be atrocious.
5. I don’t understand why you point out that other 110% killers in the game have specific range or mobility elements to their power and then specifically avoid having this killer have either of those. They are designed that way for a reason. And you have pointed out those reasons in your posts. To try and compensate for not having either of those utility portions of the power by making the power instead impossible to counter, you are setting this killer concept up for failure.
6. If the power is either so oppressive that it’ll cause DCs or so weak that the killer will be bottom-tier, then the power needs to be reworked.
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"To regain their soul Survivors must head to one of 3 Sacrificial alters. While healthy a Survivor may take 4 seconds to sacrifice a health state at an alter to become injured but regain their soul. Alters cannot be used while the Survivor is injured."
This... is too much. There should not be a negative penalty for removing a negative condition. This would be akin to losing a health state after removing a Pig trap, losing a health state after using a Freddy alarm clock, losing a health state after cleansing at a Plauge fountain, losing a health state after snapping out of it from the Doctor, losing a health state after escaping a Trapper bear trap (which can only happen with a very rare add-on)... In fact, there is no method in the game for a survivor to purposefully lose a health state to avoid a negative effect, and it's that way for a reason.
Add on to this that unhealthy survivors are permanently stuck with the massive debuff with no way of removing it without healing and then immediately going BACK to being injured makes this oppressive. Plus sacrificing a health state is pointless if your soul can be immediately reaped again while you're still injured from regaining your soul. PLUS you're effectively exposed against a killer with an increased lunge distance and at a 5% speed decrease as compared to a chase with a 115% killer if you ignore getting your soul back and just heal. A power like this would be way too frustrating for survivors, and you'd get people DCing after their soul gets reaped (especially if they're hooked afterwards) because the grind to get back to a normal health state is crazy and easily/instantly undone.
As a final note on the logistics of this power, there is no restriction on stealing the souls of downed or hooked survivors. So you could steal someone's soul, Void Strike them so they go down and regain their soul, then steal their soul again before you hook them. The Reaper should definitely only be able to steal souls from completely healthy survivors, and even then I think this power with no other changes is still very over-powered. (P.S. Why does Void Strike not regrant a survivor their soul if they're already injured? It's still a vastly improved attack)
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I really like the idea of a killer who is actually directly tied to the entity, that concept for the Acolyte is awesome! I think it makes a lot of sense that there would be a cult for the entity in the "real world". However, I'm not sure about the part where he previously escaped the entity... in my understanding, no one has been confirmed to have ever done that. Perhaps its as simple as he witnessed the survivor for the chapter being taken by the entity and then became obsessed with being taken as well, leading him to do all sorts of heinous things that eventually got him noticed.
I think the main power is a good loop-breaking power, but perhaps even too good. Maybe leave out pallets: pallets are your one safety from the Acolyte, whereas going for vaults is often a very bad idea. That changes the way survivors have to play considerably. I also don't think it needs charges if it's on a 40 second cooldown, as you should get at least one charge every 40 seconds and then what's the point of having more?
Here's an idea: the Acolyte can block a hook. So when a survivor goes to unhook another survivor, if the Acoltye is in range they can block the unhook from happening. Might be a bit too camp-y, but the long cooldown should help and it'll incentivize safe unhooks.
Atichyphobia: I'm always wary of things that will stack with brutal strength to make pallet breaking just insanely fast.
Aura Paranoia: I like terror radius perks. I think this is interesting, but the numbers might be a bit too high. 15% reduction is a LOT, considering that thanatophobia only gets there after all four survivors are injured (a lot of intentional work by the killer, whereas this is unintentional). 40 seconds is a LOT as well. Killers that have mobility such as Spirit, Demagorgon, Freddy, Billy, etc. will pretty easily get this effect constantly on almost every survivor. Also, should this effect end when a survivor re-enters the terror radius?
Maim: I'm not sure about the scratch marks part of this, because it encourages tunneling a survivor after they're unhooked. Also, I think mangled and hemorrhaged is a little overrated personally... maybe simply give the survivor the broken status effect for 60 seconds. That way they can't use insta heals and there's some poetic justice because they can't use lockers for Inner Strength.
Overall some great ideas, I like the flavor of this a lot and could totally see them adding this idea to the game as one of the unlicensed killers!