Rage_In_The_Cage
Rage_In_The_Cage
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I feel the same way about killer. All I have gotten lately are bully sabo or flash bang squads. At least if I see four flashlights I have the option of Lightborn. There’s no way to tell that they are all running flash bangs and WGLF and all the other nonsense.
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The easiest way is to play sweaty and without mercy.
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This would make squads who go out of their way to make the game miserable for killers even stronger.
I just had a match on swamp where they had 2 purple flashlights and 2 engineer boxes. Any time I downed someone they were there with breakout and sabo to knock out any hooks. If I downed and tried to chase off the sabo plays, it gave the downed survivor enough time to get in the open where it is impossible to avoid a flashlight save.
So I pushed the chases towards the boat where basement was and hooked someone in there and camped them to second stage, tunneled them off the hook to down them, and then downed her and then downed everyone else when they came for sabo plays and FL saves. They had each taken hits trying to secure a basement rescue. There was one hook on that corner of the map, which was instantly sabo’d when I downed the survivor I was tunneling. So I left them on the ground and two of them moved to the corner of the map to where even if there were other hooks nearby, I probably don’t make it.I waited for the hook to respawn and hooked the main sabo guy there and left so I wouldn’t get a camp unhook. He tried to escape and died. The rest died slugged on the ground.
In your scenario these bums would pretty much be unbeatable or at best, extremely unfun to play against. They also played the hook offerings.
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man.. I’m a killer main and I don’t even want to imagine this game without the hatch. I remember before the end game collapse and how survivors would just play ultra immersed if there were only a couple left and neither had a key for the hatch (assuming it had spawned). It would go back to that.
You said killer should be able to open the gate “after an amount of time”. That is a guaranteed survivor escape, assuming you don’t have an instadown in play. So you’re ok with looking for a survivor for some time and then going to the gate and opening it, guaranteeing they escape. But you aren’t ok with looking for a survivor and hatch for some time and they either hop through or you close it?
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Never had this happen in my matches. At worst, sometimes a killer is run to me after I am uncaged and getting healed.
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I died in my first couple of survivor matches but then escaped every one of them until my last one yesterday and in that one I ran a Wraith way across the map away from the last gen being done so that the few other survivors left had more of a chance. Haven't seen any of this slugging.
I've only done maybe four or five killer matches because of the queue but haven't had a single survivor escape. They just don't do gens. Same problem as regular DbD. Also I had no idea THREE hatches spawn for survivors. Ridiculous. I closed all three last night as Trapper in a match and was expecting to find two or three more.
Just had a match where this Lara was running me quite well on Crotus in areas where I hadn't set up traps and at the end I injured her and chased her to a hatch that I closed before she could make it, then like 45 seconds later I came to another hatch and closed it and who do I hear near it injured but Lara.. downed her and killed her. Forget these survivors, man.
Do gens.
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it all boils down to Franklin’s. This perk has resulted in a rise in Franklin’s use, which survivors hate.
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Congrats, you’re rewarding killers for playing the perk combo you hate, resulting in them running it more and more.
BHVR shouid just make the killer side of the game entirely bots that just walk around letting survivors pallet stun them and locker stun them and flashlight blind them. That seems to be what survivor mains want.
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The combo isn’t that good, survivors just hate Franklins. Pick your item back up and hide it. Not that hard.
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basically it boils down to a very small amount of killers are using this meh combo to get info but in reality, survivors are upset because of Franklin’s. It’s always been one of the most hated killer perks. Now we are seeing all kinds of nerf ideas that all basically boil down to “how can we remover Franklin’s from the equation”.
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It’s a decent combo but not worth two slots. Also, if we are balancing hypothetical combos on hypothetical team compositions and whether someone may be or may not be in a SWF, then a lot of perks need adjusting.
If you notice you’re in the range of Weave, get the item, run it somewhere irrelevant and return. There, problem solved. -
I main the Clown and honestly he’s not that good. He has terrible mobility and no map pressure at all. Run Windows like every other survivor does and you’re fine.
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He will get nerfed, and then he will be just another average at best killer.
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on days when I play DbD I probably give up on hook in at least 25% of my games. If I get hooked and survivors are doing nothing, I’m out. If someone else is already throwing or has DC’d, I’m out. I solo queue, the game is not worth sticking around for what will be a miserable experience.
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what website do you go to?
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Adrenaline is still great.
Signed, a SoloQ player.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3665385#Comment_3665385
They run the killer for as long as they can, when the killer is explicitly targeting them when they're injured, out of position, and very likely to be in a deadzone?
The whole point of choosing to tunnel a survivor is that they're starting that chase on an extreme back foot. All the killer has to do is start the chase, but the survivor has to both get lucky enough to have a resource near enough to get to before their BT runs out and then play substantially better than their opponent to make up for the fact that the chase is heavily stacked against them.
I absolutely agree that countering tunnelling should be on the survivors to play well. It is then therefore unavoidably a requirement for them playing well to actually reliably counter the tactic, which it currently does not. They have to play far better than their opponent to overcome the fact that they're being targeted when they haven't had a chance to make smart decisions. Playing well isn't just about how well you can loop, and expecting survivors to be on Team Eternal's level just to counter a cheese tactic from the killer is not balanced.
For example: If the basekit BT wasn't Endurance but just blocked a hit (like Mettle Of Man), they could then chain their anti-tunnel into it, as well as using other forms of Endurance like Dead Hard. Then they'd be able to smartly chain tiles together because they actually had the equivalent of starting a normal chase with the killer, and how much time they waste is up to them. This would help them while being tunnelled, but not otherwise, because anti-tunnel disables on Conspicuous Actions.
As it stands, though, trying to use something like OTR gets you hit straight away, trying to use DS just gets you downed again very quickly in most scenarios, and that's it when it comes to personal anti-tunnel. Even if you wanted to stack a full build of anti-tunnel perks, you can't, there's only two you can bring yourself and they aren't actually very good + have anti-synergy with the basekit mechanic. Even when branching out into other tools that could help in that scenario, the question arises: is it fair for you to have to run all of these perks to counter something the killer needs no perks and no effort to do? The answer is no, I'm not leaving it open-ended. That's not a fair outcome, you shouldn't be given a loss just because you wanted variety in your perk builds.
Tunnelling has already been lessened, as a problem. It's impossible now for the killer to hit you as soon as your feet touch the ground, and that was a great start. It's still not balanced, though, and nine times out of ten imbalances should be fixed.
If they got downed in a dead zone then that’s on them. If they used a ton of resources in the chase and the gens aren’t flying then that’s on the survivors.
You can go to effort all you want, the killer is still exuding more effort than the survivors. There is no fair or unfair in the build you decide to use. Survivors have options, just like killers have options. A killer can run an entire gen defense build. Buying your teammates time to do gens doesn’t require a full build. You can run one or two perks for it and do whatever you want with the rest. Or run a full variety of perks and don’t worry about whether you’re going to get tunneled or not. It rarely happens to me.
This will be my last reply on the issue, we’re just going to keep going back and forth. Per usual, the issue just boils down to survivors needing to play better.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3664595#Comment_3664595
Again. How.
How does the survivor being tunnelled punish the killer for it? Their tools for doing so are very weak, if those tools were strong enough to reliably punish killers we wouldn't see nearly as much tunnelling.
How do the other survivors punish the killer for tunnelling? By rushing the gens and getting out? I think we have to acknowledge that nobody really enjoys games where one player is targeted out ASAP and the others have nothing to do but hold M1. That's even assuming they can rush the gens, considering the survivor being tunnelled needs outside help to stand much of a chance unless they get very lucky or they're exceptionally skilled.
And after those two questions, I once again bring you to the core question, and I do want an answer: Is it fair and balanced for one side to put in very little effort or thought, and force the other side to put in ten times as much effort and thought to maybe counter them? Is that an acceptable level of balance?
The survivor being tunneled runs the killer as long as they can. The punishment comes from the other survivors doing gens and getting out. I don’t care about what survivors find fun or what killers find fun. I could just as easily say is it fun for a Trapper to have gens fly by while they try to play nice and 12 hook.
The amount of effort required is equally pointless. Survivor is a much easier role requiring not much effort. Some killers are so strong they require much less effort than others.
Im not sure why you’re expecting balance in a strategy that can easily throw the game for the killer. And it’s also a strategy that is present in virtually every 4v1 type game.
Again, it’s on the survivors to play well.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3662178#Comment_3662178
How do you propose the survivors prevent it?
The only real variable is how long the first chase lasts. The entire point of tunnelling is that every subsequent chase is significantly easier due to the survivor being injured, close to you, and more than likely in an area where resources have already been used. Dedicated anti-tunnel perks tend to be too weak to do their job or otherwise have some quirk preventing them from working properly, and even perks that aren't anti-tunnel tend to be fairly inconsistent in this context. Sure, sometimes you can give a tunnelling killer the slip if you get lucky, but that's luck, not repeatable skill.
Plus, I do have to ask the question again: Why should one player have to put in massive effort and tons of thought/preparation to counter something that requires extremely little effort and zero preparation from their opponent? Isn't that inherently unbalanced?
How do they prevent what? Tunneling? You can’t prevent a killer from tunneling. All you can do is punish them for it.
It’s not unbalanced because you can punish the killer for it 👍
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3661377#Comment_3661377
It's not an ideal solution because nothing actually changes?
The killer still gets to leverage this unbalanced tactic to gain a massive advantage without much effort, the survivor being tunnelled still gets targeted out of the game with very little agency in reacting to it, and the rest of the survivor team are still put in a massively disadvantageous 3v1 for the rest of the game.
"Play better" is absolutely a fair thing to say in some situations, but not here. Why should the survivor players have to put in ten times the effort to try and punish tunnelling, compared to how much effort the killer has to put in to tunnel someone out? Even when they do sweat their butts off trying, they're not even guaranteed to achieve anything, since they're running uphill against an unbalanced gap in the game's mechanics.
It's not fair to tell killers "play better" against things like old Dead Hard, or current For the People + Buckle Up, or flat out genrushing with stacked toolboxes and dedicated builds. Those things are (or were) actually unbalanced. Tunnelling is the same way.
it’s only a “massive advantage” if the survivors make it a massive advantage. If a killer has one or two gens left to defend after tunneling someone out of the game then there is no massive advantage.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3661020#Comment_3661020
I've never really understood the argument about survivors who bodyblock complaining if you down and hook them. Who cares? They're in the wrong in this scenario, if the hypothetical system we devise doesn't allow survivors to abuse it because they become vulnerable again... good, that means it's working, it doesn't matter if that player complains about it.
Also, may I ask, why are perks like Windows, Dead Hard, Second Wind, and Sprint Burst on your list of perks there? Those aren't anti-tunnel perks, they're just perks you might also be able to use while you're being tunnelled to varying effect. Even the others aren't that convincing; Decisive Strike is too weak to do its job, Borrowed Time is something you have to rely on your teammates bringing, and OTR is okay but doesn't really work nearly as well if the killer hits you right away... which if they want to tunnel, they will, after hearing you aren't making injured noises.
The fact is, tunnelling is very easy to do and very difficult to react to beyond just rushing gens and getting out, which is pretty obviously not an ideal situation in the least. Trying to come up with a way of addressing it and fixing the balance without too much collateral damage is totally fair game, there's good reason to try.
and what would that system be? Because the one presented is not any good. Obviously survivors who body block off the hook and then complain about tunneling are in the wrong but the point is lots of survivors have that mentality.
those perks help against tunneling because they provide distance and lots of information. Also how is knocking out gens not an ideal solution to tunneling? A tunneling killer getting 15k points max and at most two kills is a great way to make them pay for camping and tunneling.
survivors need to play better.
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@Frizouw said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3648962#Comment_3648962
I understand the point of view of abusing the system, what if the moment that a survivor:
- Touch a gen
- Start healing itself (not being heal by another survivor, I think it's already punishing to have two persons on healing)
- Is fully healed
- Another survivor got hook
He is not immune anymore. If the killer just follow the survivor, he is loosing his time by it's own fault of being silly and it's not about luck or not in that situation. What do you think about that?
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Also If you want to talk about perks, you could at least enumerate them, explain yourself, because just saying that "They’ve added so many perks and baseline elements to combat tunneling" is not a valid argument for me.
The following perks that you can equip more than one at the same time and the buff of gen kicking and the fact that it takes more time now to finish a gen than back in the days, I am not sure at 100% but I think it was 80 seconds before, now it's 90 seconds:
- Corrupt Intervention
- Dead Man's Switch
- Deadlock
- Eruption
- Grim Embrace
- Hex: Ruin
- Oppression
- Overcharge
- Pop Goes the Weasel
- Scourge hook: Pain Resonance
- Surge
- Thrilling Tremors
- Thanatophobia
- Hex: Pentimento
- Call of Brine
In exchange what do survivor have to fight against tunneling? They have:
- Decision Strike
- Buckle up + For the people combo (that require a team mate around, so -1 person less doing gens)
- Sometimes they can use Power Struggle if they die really close to a palette
- Flashlight + Background player (that require a team mate around, so -1 person less doing a gens, need to succeed and if the killer does not have lightborn)
- Sabotaging hook (that require a team mate around, so -1 person less doing gens, need to succeed)
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Again, it's not about winning or loosing, it's about fun.
What do gen perks have to do with tunneling? If a killer is utilizing numerous gen perks, they probably aren't tunneling. Also, gens still don't take long to complete. A decent runner should be able to run a killer long enough for a couple of gens to pop. As for the things they have added to combat tunneling, you have perks like Borrowed Time, D strike, Second Wind, Dead Hard, Windows, Sprint Burst, Off the Record, among others. They've also added in a built in Borrowed Time type mechanic, hook camping gauge, among others.
Now, this is a game full of RNG, so sometimes the killer you are facing or the map you are on or the layout of the map makes it hard or impossible to run the killer as long as you'd like. But that goes both ways, the killer can be equally handcuffed by the map or the layout randomly generated on a map.
Any system where a survivor is immune until another survivor is hooked is not going to work because they will abuse it. You can add qualifiers to it or gameplay elements that disable it but again, just look at what they already do. You can have a survivor run to a hook and unhook someone and that rescued survivor will body block you because they know they are invincible. And then if you down them they'll complain that you tunneled.
It all comes back to survivors playing the game well. It's incredibly easy to punish a camping tunneling killer. But too many survivors would rather swarm the hook and try to entice the killer to chase. You aren't going to be able to prevent a killer from tunneling if the killer is set on doing it. All you can do is punish by rushing through gens.
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In my experience survivors are removing themselves from games because their teammates aren't doing anything. That's my typical reason anyway. I get hooked and no gens are done and everyone is crouch walking around or in a locker? I'm out.
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I have almost 20k kills in the game and I’m going to give a hard pass to the idea that the game is worse than ever for killers. There used to be no closing the hatch, which could spawn before the game was even done. Survivors could BNP a gen to completion instantly, and insta heal also. Anyone else remember when survivors could get their exhaustion perks back mid chase, which wasn’t always difficult because the loops were much stronger back then and DH for distance made them even more ridiculous? When Borrowed Time would give the hooked survivor AND the rescuer immunity?
The problem with this game for killers is there’s not much middle ground anymore. You can pick a super strong meta killer and curb stomp most matches. You can pick one of the weak M1 killers and you’ll either dominate with an easy 4k, or you might get one kill.
I play survivor more now because killer is just boring. As survivor I can have intense matches where we battle the killer and come out on top and maybe two of us escape. As a killer you can try to play fair and whittle down the resources survivors have but that typically leaves you with no gens left and 3-4 survivors alive.
The RNG aspect of the maps also hurts killers. Some of the tiles that can spawn in this game just leave certain killers with no counter except to avoid it. I saw a fun looking Wraith build video a few days ago and tried it. Survivors had a side of the map with three gens where they had shack, the window lead directly to a super safe pallet that was not possible to mind game, and to the right of that was an L T wall, and to the right of that was another safe pallet with a window on the opposite side, and to the right of that was a pallet that wasn’t super safe, but had that window to the left side. And that was just one edge of the map. A good looper could keep Wraith occupied for 3-5 gens EASY. So my only option is to ignore that edge of the map and let those three gens go. Except, any time I find a survivor they run there. If I bloodlust my way through some of that junk and get a hit, before I can do it again, someone runs in to take a hit.
Now, if I were say, Nurse, or Blight, or Huntress, or even Clown (my main) those loops would have been completely different. But a killers entire ability to progress a match shouldn’t be removed because of bad RNG. If a survivor runs say, Balanced, maybe there are a couple maps in the game where if they spawn there, they get much less value from it than other maps. But that’s just one perk, not the entire ability of the killer.
Killer has become way too stale. It’s either a curb stomp or 3-4 escape, and the bad part is it’s all up to map RNG or survivor skill, it has very little to do with killer skill now. That’s why you see so many killers who will camp and tunnel. If you have the choice of losing three gens while you tunnel one survivor out of the game versus losing three gens while you try to spread hooks around, why would a killer not just remove one of the survivors?
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I thought killers have a different MMR depending on which killer they pick? Isn’t that the entire reason you can’t change killer after you start searching for a match?
Clown is my main and I know I get way better survivors when I play Clown, Nemesis, or Trapper than if I play Sudoku or another killer I barely use.
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They’ve added so many perks and baseline elements to combat tunneling. At this point it’s up to survivors to play better. Also, your idea of making it impossible to down an unhooked survivor until another is hooked would just be abused by survivors. Look at the built in BT, do survivors use it to make it safely away from the hook? No, they use it to bodyblock for other survivors because they know they are immune to being downed.
Again it comes down to better play from survivors. You can easily punish a killer for tunneling. Because tunneling typically involves camping too.
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@mikewelk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3637272#Comment_3637272
How's it on me? I was on the gen in the screenshot as early as possible and the others were doing god knows what, it's solo queue after all. I played my part to the best of my ability. The survivor being tunneled shouldn't have to face that considering the killer is way above their MMR and putting too much pressure on them for them to last longer. The outlying problem here is MMR and not the survivors fault lmao.
If you were on the gen as early as possible then the survivor being chased is either throwing or just not any good.
Also the killer isn’t guaranteed to be “way above” their MMR. It’s one of the most oppressive killers in the game.
The outlying problem is survivors don’t know how to optimally play.
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I run Deja Vu and Detectives Hunch because Hunch will also show you totems. Been having a lot of NOED and Devour lately.
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If three survivors are only able to do maybe one gen in the time it takes a killer to three hook someone out of the game, that’s on those four survivors. The three doing gens should have done more than that, and the one survivor being tunneled should have ran the killer longer.
That being said, you’re also talking about the 1a/1b top of the tier list in terms of killers with Blight. It’s not indicative of the overall experience.
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- what buffs would you give solo players and what buffs would you give killers to compensate?
- you do realize this is BHVR, which means these changes might take four years to implement.
- how do you buff solo to compensate for players who are just bad, or immersed? I just had a match against an infinite tier 3 Myers, it was a lobby of four solo queue Xbox users. Two of the survivors did nothing all game. They weren’t chased, they weren’t playing stealthy, they were literally doing nothing. Me and one other survivor did four gens and I got the last gen like 80% done.
This is the main problem with the idea that solo queue needs buffs. In the end it won’t really matter. There’s no buff that can make a random not bring the killer to your 97% done gen. No buff can make a random not instant throw a god pallet without looping. No buff can make a random not crouch walk to you when you’re hooked and you go second stage because they take forever.
Bad players are bad. You can’t buff bad players without breaking the game for everyone else.
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I run Windows, Circle of Healing, Overzealous, and Deja Vu.
Windows lets me see which pallets my team has wasted. Deja Vu gives me a gen repair bonus and helps me keep my team from three genning us. It also pairs nicely with Overzealous, which I can proc by booning a totem.
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This patch is not bad for killers, and I say that as someone approaching 20k kills in the game. Of course, it doesn’t do much to address the fact that as a whole, killers aren’t in a very good place right now before the patch. But the patch itself isn’t anything substantially bad. The STBFL rework is a nerf but it’s still a great perk for the worst killers in the game.
If you run bad killers, the game was already very survivor sided and it’s still very survivor sided. If you run the good killers then nothing has really changed. Eight regressions on a generator is plenty.
Id really like to see them explain with logic and reasoning why they’d nerf a perk like STBFL when it’s only worth running on the bottom tier killers but at the same time aren’t giving those bottom tier killers anything to make up for it.
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There are four survivors and one killer. So any complaining off the bat is going to be slanted towards favoring survivors, there are simply more of them. And the devs will cater to that side because there are more of them and it’s easier to sell them cosmetics.
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Pain Res is unchanged here.
Pop is also unchanged itself, but kicks got a buff. However, you’re also now only able to regress a gen eight times.
Heres a question, does Pop make each gen kick count as two of your eight regressions on a gen? You kick it, that’s one, Pop procs on it, that’s two.
This seems to be a good change to the gen tapping meta.
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Devs help, I want ez escapes as survivor
Wraith, LOL
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Challenge is bugged for me, too. Just had six basement hooks in one game and zero counted.
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If you're back from years off, wouldn't your MMR be super bad? You're probably just getting meh survivors.
Personally my difficulty as killer depends on the killer I use. I main Clown and I always seem to get sweaty gen rushers with meta builds, and I might get a 4k sometimes but it's usually a 2-3k, or a loss sometimes. But I use other killers and it's like I am playing against bots sometimes.
Also maybe you're just using high meta killers.
I don't think it's any easier to win as killer than before, especially now with the endurance meta that survivors are using. I had a Bubba match a week or so ago where I swear I had survivors tank at least ten hits and run off throughout the match, it's insane.
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Have you tried doing gens?