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@zarr said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2691017#Comment_2691017
Your points regarding hook states don't really change anything about the fact that they're the objectively better measure. Bubba was not being played here so that's a pretty irrelevant argument in this context, but even if we do entertain it, it's a rather specific example because Bubba can defend hooks like practically no second killer - and even then, the fact that he can do that is entirely balance-relevant and an obvious strength of this killer; if he gets a guaranteed +2 stages simply by standing in front of a fresh hook, why should we take that to somehow unfairly be skewing hook stages, rather than affecting them in a completely balance-relevant way. Again, camping is precisely one major reason why hook stages tell a better story of the real balance, as they account for this and many other scenarios where survivors go through multiple stages on hooks. Why would we look to actual hooking events to gauge balance with if the game reality is not actually balanced for that? If we were to try to balance the game for the ability of winning by hooking every survivor 3 times without accounting for the reality that camping and slugging can lead to survivors dying after only being hooked once, we would likely end up with a scenario where Bubba could facecamp every single hook and consistently 4k doing so. The fact that he cannot do that currently (not at this level anyway) goes to show that the game is balanced with camping in mind, and hook stages are a great measure for the balance of that reality.
Likewise, stages being racked up in the endgame also doesn't affect things in any way that is somehow not balance-relevant. Mind you, in tournament play it is actually very rare for survivors to try and rescue a teammate in the endgame, in the vast majority of cases they will just leave. But even if that weren't the case, survivors contesting hooks in the endgame are still playing to try and survive with more players alive, so if they end up giving up more stages for that it's not like they gave them up for no reason.
While your point regarding map offering restrictions still being a restriction is valid, it is again not only a restriction for survivors. Killers can bring map offerings for killer-sided maps too, and they have the same chances of ending up on that map. Of course, survivors could be burning map offerings for 4 different maps each of which they consider favourable for them, thus skewing the odds 4 to 1 against the killer, but not only are they also forgoing other offerings for it, but it has to be kept in mind that "map" offerings are really realm offerings, which for various realms means they don't actually guarantee ending up on a specific map. There is no Cowshed offering for instance, maybe they would end up on Rotten Fields. And yeah, a Sacrificial Ward being played would make it a crapshoot entirely.
I really don't think people are making a strong point by attacking this tournament's map pool. Rancid Abattoir is a super strong map for survivors, Gas Heaven is in line with the state of balance of a wide variety of maps. Sure Cowshed is ridiculous, but we could also go to Resting Place, Shelter Woods or Coal Tower, which are more favourable for killers than any of the maps in this pool. Besides, Nurse, Blight and Spirit really don't care so much about the maps they're on - obviously there are exceptions, but I wouldn't expect very different results for these killers on most maps.
Here we are not discussing how interesting the game is, but rather which side has the advantage when both the killer and survivor sides are trying to "win".
A hook counter of 12 is a complete victory for the killer side, and a hook counter of 0 is a complete victory for the survivor side. So, from the point of view of victory, it is desirable that the average hook counter is 6 or 7. Of course, just repeating camp might get the hook counter to 6, and that might not make for an interesting game, but that's another discussion.
There are two types of DbD players: those who seek to win and those who seek to have fun. Normally, there would be a division between casual and ranked matches, and these would be separated from each other, but DbD doesn't have such a system, so they exist in the same place at the same time. This is the biggest problem when it comes to game balance in this game.
Many of the maps and killers are very well done if you take balance out of the equation. (R.P.D. is the best map for me because I like Resident Evil. I think the balance is terrible...)
Winning is not always the same as having fun.
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I'm Japanese, and this is a very interesting discussion, the likes of which you don't see on Japanese forums!
I would also like to know the result if we use the same rules but exclude Nurse, Bright and Spirit. The only thing I can tell about the killer side from these results is that "if you master Nurse or Blight, you can 4k against any survivor".(A lot of people have mentioned killers other than Nurse, Bright and Spirit, but that's probably not the purpose here: they may be able to do 4k or only 0k.)
I was surprised to see the combination of No way out and None escapes death used in a top level match. It's a unique build of the nurse, who doesn't gather the generators in one place and hunt down the survivor while calculating the situation of the board, but just attacks and breaks it down at once.
Nurse, Blight, and Spirit are tactically "offensive" killers, not "defensive" killers. What are the tactics of defensive killers like Hag and Cannibal? "Dead lock" will be used to force the camp as it has to be 1k by the middle of the game. "Corrupt Intervention" will also be used to prevent the game from being settled in the first a hundred seconds. Will they use "Starstruck" or "Bamboozle" to supplement your offensive capabilities, or "Pop Goes the Weasel" or "Eruption" to further strengthen your defensive capabilities? We'd love to see the next tournament held with something other than the Top 3 killers.
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The current DbD doesn't have a casual match mode where you can take it easy, and you are expected to play at your best at all times.
The previous matching system was the opposite, only casual matches were available unless you used SWF. No matter how hard you tried to escape, you were always dragged down by lazy survivors who were only trying to have fun, making it difficult to escape even against a killer of your own rank.
The current DbD is a very interesting environment for who want to "win". The more you win, the stronger your opponents get, and you're always matched up with the right people to put your all into. On the other hand, many players who play this game for fun rather than victory feel that they are not having fun because they are constantly being matched with tough opponents.
Separating casual matches from ranked matches is what DbD needs most right now, in my opinion.